Ethical or not?! - Discussion about octuplets. [Archive]

Remali

01-30-2009, 03:48 PM

Apparently they implanted 8 embryos when for a woman her age should only have 2 implanted.
And why undergo fertility treatment when you already have 6 children.... I see it was on the News tonite too.
Sure raises some interesting issues. Who is going to pay for all of this. It was reported that the woman is living with her parents in just a three bedroom home. Unbelievable.

vicklynn

01-30-2009, 03:49 PM

So, the mother of the kids lives with her mother? Hmmm, no daddy? Grandpa works in Iraq and makes the money. Weird. I wanna know why she needed more than 6 kids if shes living off her mother.
Im glad shes not my daughter, she'd be on the street and the kids adopted out.

Tiz

01-30-2009, 04:47 PM

The Doctor in this case? Good heavens man, money isn't everything, you know?

Kaitlyn

01-30-2009, 04:54 PM

What's that I hear? "MOOOO"

Milkin' the system.

Insanity.

WashingtonBay

01-30-2009, 05:31 PM

And why undergo fertility treatment when you already have 6 children...

That seems like the first question I'd ask. Fertility doesn't appear to be one of the problems that needed solving! :huh:

The aspect that amused me on liberal boards was the infighting about whether they really believe in reproductive freedom, or whether there are particular choices they favor. There is unrest on that issue. Some feel society does have a say in how many. Some fear the drain on the planet, some on the system. The thing they don't seem to understand is that children, no matter what the short term costs, are a net gain to the economy, not a drain (assuming they eventually get jobs). They seem to think the most responsible choice is to remain childless. In fact... we'll need others to have had children in order to even have an economy for the future. Ah well. I guess with gals like this around, there will hopefully be enough to make up for folk like me and them who don't have any.

The issue on conservative boards appears to be whether she can support them.

mare

01-30-2009, 06:23 PM

Unethical. Unethical for her, as a mom, to even request the procedure. Unethical for the doc, who I just bet, will be publishing a case study. No big money in doing a case study (usually no money), but it opens many financially lucrative doors.

Horserider

01-31-2009, 07:19 AM

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ilIx-PXnXPpwF1a_nlRYF00fzBIQD96261B81

LOS ANGELES (AP) — The woman who gave birth to octuplets this week conceived all 14 of her children through in vitro fertilization, is not married and has been obsessed with having children since she was a teenager, her mother said.

Angela Suleman told The Associated Press she was not supportive when her daughter, Nadya Suleman, decided to have more embryos implanted last year.

"It can't go on any longer," she said in a phone interview Friday. "She's got six children and no husband. I was brought up the traditional way. I firmly believe in marriage. But she didn't want to get married."

Her daughter's obsession with children caused Angela Suleman considerable stress, so she sought help from a psychologist, who told her to order her daughter out of the house.

14 children and no husband??? I think the daughter is the one who needs the psychologist.

Remali

01-31-2009, 07:40 AM

Milking the cash cow, as they say. And the doctor should have known better too. Unreal.

Horserider

01-31-2009, 07:44 AM

So unethical. I just read another story (link's posted on this forum) that says she had frozen embryos left over from her previous pregnancies and she didn't want them to be disposed off. :rolleyes: Being against abortion and the destruction of already fertilized embryos I can understand, but getting pregnant with 8 children just so your frozen embryos don't go to waste is just ridiculous! Apparently, the doctors told her that she could abort some of the embryos, but she refused.

WashingtonBay

01-31-2009, 07:57 AM

FYI Horserider - I merged the new thread into this one. Hope you don't mind.

Interesting new information. She's not well.

Horserider

01-31-2009, 08:03 AM

That's fine WB. I would've posted right on this thread, but I didn't notice it at the time. :)

cowgirlup@idaho

01-31-2009, 08:11 AM

She's obviously short a few bricks on her load ;), but the real trajedy is the 14 children. What are their chances at a 'normal' and successful life being raised by a mentally ill mother?

vicklynn

01-31-2009, 08:21 AM

Ya know, she must of been an only child and wanted siblings, lots of them.......one way to get back at mom hu.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwww, boot her out, put the kids up for adoption.

WashingtonBay

01-31-2009, 08:28 AM

There were frozen embryos left over after her previous pregnancies and her daughter didn't want them destroyed, so she decided to have more children.This is why the pro-life purists are opposed to IVF, because of the number of embryos created in the process. Because if you believe life begins at conception, then they are all souls and lives that deserve to be born. I can see it weighing on her mind that she had created all these babies. That in itself is not mental illness. The only moral choice for her according to that belief, is to have them.

The mental illness is the obsession with having children that started all this when she had no real means for supporting them.

Cat

01-31-2009, 09:16 AM

Unethical. I highly doubt she could support them financially herself. It seems to me some people put more financial thought in getting a pet than some ever put in having kids. Kids are extremely expensive.

I'm not a doctor, but wouldn't a multiple birth pregnancy be extremely high risk, especially with 8? I would think there would be some ethic issues on the doctor's part on allowing this to happen.

oursarge

01-31-2009, 09:33 AM

It's funny, I'm an only child and I never wanted kids! I feel bad for my mother not being a grandmother but I wasn't going to try for a kid to please her. We've never been sorry for our decision, we were just talking about that the other night, not once have we wished we did things a different way.

I wish my mother did have more kids, she's been a good mother but so often the ones who are good can't have kids. Her first one was still born then she had me then lost one then didn't have any more, they told her she could die.

I can not even imagine all those kids, I think she's got real issues, at first I thought 8 is NUTS then when I found out she already had 6 I couldn't believe it, that's beyond nuts. If she can support them herself well then that's her business but I hope the taxpayers aren't supporting them.

WashingtonBay

01-31-2009, 09:34 AM

I think you're right, Cat, on the medical ethics question. These babies will be hospitalized at least a month, and will probably cost ~someone~ a few million. I read in one of the articles there were 46 doctors and uncounted other medical staff on hand for the birth.

Cat

01-31-2009, 09:41 AM

Yowzers. 46 doctors?

grandmadeb

01-31-2009, 09:42 AM

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I would have loved to have more than my two but I couldn't afford to take the time off work and affording more would have been difficult. Plus I felt so lucky that I had 2 healthy ones at the age of 36 and then 37.
14 kids is an awful lot for a single parent, heck it's an overload for 2 parents! Ethical or not it is done now and I sure hope this gives the medical community pause for thought.

Horserider

01-31-2009, 09:46 AM

If she can support them herself well then that's her business but I hope the taxpayers aren't supporting them.

She can't. I believe I read a couple days ago that she already filed for bankruptcy.

Yowzers. 46 doctors?

Yup. Sure is a lot.

Dust in the Wind

02-01-2009, 08:32 PM

Here's what makes it truely sad for me. One of her previous six is autistic. Watching one of my friends dealing with one autistic child leads me to believe that it's quite possible that proper care can't/won't be given to all 14 children. She could be Super-mom with a Super-grandma helping her, but all of these children are under 8. How the heck will that work for these poor children?

Verdict: Unethical.

missdixie

02-01-2009, 08:55 PM

I think it's disgusting, and let me tell you why. It is grossly irresponsible because this was a single mom who already had six children she couldn't afford, then underwent FERTILITY TREATMENTS to have this litter of kids? Who in their right mind would do this? It can't be anything other than a mental pathology, and these poor children and the taxpayers have to pay for it. Who is the sick doctor who went along with this, and where did she get the money for the fertility treatments?

Sundays Man

02-03-2009, 08:42 AM

Looks like the questions are moot. She has been offered $2 million for her story. That's just the starting point I'm sure. I disagree with her decision and of others around her on MANY levels, but then again, this isn't China and we can't stop her from having babies....yet anyway. The sanity of the grandmother, grandfather, mom, doctors, etc should be looked at closely. This is just plain wierd and the children are the ones who will suffer. You can't possibly take care of 14 kids day in and day out and give them everything they need to be nurtured and loved no matter how much help you have. Just plain wierd. Having said that, the norm in years past was to have large families to help with farm chores, etc and they all seemed to get loved and matured into the greatest generation this nation has ever had. Much different times and ethics then though.

Vibe

02-03-2009, 08:47 AM

Ya know, she must of been an only child and wanted siblings, lots of them.......one way to get back at mom hu.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwww, boot her out, put the kids up for adoption.

Lol. I agree 100% about kicking her stupid @$$ out. And giving the poor children a real chance at life. None of them will get the attention they deserve this way. Her other six kids are all under eight years old.:rolleyes:

ProvenPaint

02-03-2009, 08:38 PM

I saw this the other day; I'm still frazzeled.

Unethical. Period. No question about it!

Having 6, then doing fertility treatments & having 8 more...ugh. No father. I don't believe theres is any possible way to support & love those kids like they need but I guess with the $2 mil she could support them better...*shaking head*

I watch a loving family of 2 full time working parents (good jobs at that), and 3 kids (7 & younger) struggle with the many things in life but they make it work & I look up to them with great adoration.

Yes there was bigger families earlier but things were allot different then too...

cheval

02-03-2009, 08:46 PM

Unethical.

I bet somehow we are gonna end up paying for those kids.... book/movie deals or not. She's obviously not responsible. She lives at home.

oursarge

02-04-2009, 04:24 AM

There was just a little segment on GMA that said the mother of the lady with all the kids gave an interview with US Magazine and said the woman is an only child and always wanted a big family and blamed her for not giving her lots of siblings. I guess now she's having her own! Last week GMA reported the mother saying when the daughter gets out of the hospital she's leaving and the daughter will be on her own.

I'm an only child and never wanted siblings or kids? Maybe I'm nuts?????

natisha

02-04-2009, 05:10 AM

Yes, families used to be bigger for various reasons including lack of birth control, which is available now. They also didn't have them all in one litter.

IVF is not easy. You need IM hormones over a course of time to release that many eggs, it's a surgical procedure to retrieve the eggs & so on. No way Granny was not aware of all this going on. She is her daughter's enabler & now she wants to bail. Maybe they want deals like 'Jon & Kate plus 8'. I hope they get nothing but social workers breathing down their necks. As for the doctor, who knows what kind of lies she told him?

I feel sorry for the kids.

Harleys Owner

02-04-2009, 05:13 AM

From my understanding, just the process of IVF is expensive..??? How did she pay for that, or who paid for that?

All that is really moot now tho, what's done is done. Hopefully, one way or another, all the kids will have decent lives.

TLC97

02-04-2009, 06:21 AM

This really hits close to home for me. I am an only child and always wanted siblings. Would I have 14 kids to make up for that, NO!!!! I was only able to have 1 child, IVF was an option and one we (my husband & I) chose not to do.

6 kids in today's society, one being autistic is a hardship financially and parenting wise. Now with 14 kids in the house who will have time for all of their needs, both physical and emotional? ALL parents involved in this situation need some serious therapy. I feel for these kids, they have a few strikes against them already for being raised by a wacko. The doc should be disbarred as far as I am concerned.

Who did pay for the fertility and medical bills?? I sure hope it was not our tax dollars.

lovesfortune

02-04-2009, 07:24 AM

i don't like it either. i know there are families out there (like the Duggars) that have 18 kids and do just fine. but they are a two parent household, they aren't using IVF (they are leaving it up to God) and are able to support them just fine.

i don't agree that a single mom who already has a lot of kids should go through IVF to have another 8 just because she wants a big family. wants and needs is a big difference. and there is hardly any way she will be able to support them and give them all the love they deserve.

sad, all the way around. and i agree with Tanya, I don't have any good thoughts about the dr. either.

AUEquine

02-05-2009, 07:07 PM

Between this and the Calyee Anthony stuff, my blood just boild every time I turn on the TV... so here are my opinions:

the doctor who did this:
I'll bet money that this wasn't an american doctor. she obviously didn't have money to pay off and american doctor to perform such a dangerous and irresponsible thing as implanting 8 embryos. I'm fairly cirtain she went south of the border to have this done.

the choice to have more children:
yes this is your God given right to bear children. I feel that that God given right was to have children by natural means, but I'm not against fertility treatment (just found out my mom went on it for me). so if you're body can have them that's your choice. But luckly in this country your option to keep them is the states! And luckly with the notoriety this case is recieving, I'm sure that social services will be involved in this one!

the parents:
I know a parents love is strong and most of the time blind... this is also being shown in the casey anthony case. But come on, enough is enough, this is like supporting a drug addict, only she's not just hurting herself, these are innocent children that are being affected.

the media:
I read that her PR person (yes that's right, she's hired a PR team) said she had 100's of offers coming in everyday for interviews, TV shows, book deals, etc. This is insane! When will it end? How many people do you think will go out now and try to have amazing numbers of multiples just to get money? These are children, not cash cows! It's fine to cover the story, and expose the issue, but paying her for it is rediculous!

it's just sick, I could care less about her, I just feel so sorry for those children.

natisha

02-06-2009, 07:05 AM

She's like a people hoarder!!

Remali

02-06-2009, 09:49 AM

Hopefully they investigate the doctor.... and get this woman some psychiatric help, people hoarder is exactly what I was thinking too.

Ragnar Danneskjold

02-06-2009, 10:33 AM

Hopefully they investigate the doctor.... and get this woman some psychiatric help, people hoarder is exactly what I was thinking too.

Hoarder?

Collector?

I think, maybe... Child Catcher:

YouTube - The Child Catcher

Remali

02-06-2009, 12:44 PM

Child Catcher....LOL!!

Well, now she has gone on MSNBC and talked to them.... she said she wanted a large family.....sheesh.
Well, I'd love to have a lot of money and be a millionaire but I'm not going to go doing something stupid like rob a bank or something.....

Wait....hang on...it gets worse....OK, THIS really irritates me....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/06/earlyshow/health/main4779589.shtml?source=RSSattr=Health_4779589

Ragnar Danneskjold

02-06-2009, 12:55 PM

That woman is deeply disturbed. I have a bad feeling about her.

Her story isn't over yet.

Remali

02-06-2009, 01:03 PM

I was shocked to read she had been on disability before she had all these kids... sounds to me like she had a plan....

twofingers

02-06-2009, 01:07 PM

Hopefully they investigate the doctor.... and get this woman some psychiatric help, people hoarder is exactly what I was thinking too.

She has already had psychiatric help, that is what she is on disability for.

Remali

02-06-2009, 02:12 PM

Yeah, she obviously needs continuing psych help. I read she was on disability for a back injury.....

"(CBS/AP) The mother of newborn octuplets and six other children collected almost $168,000 in state disability payments for an on-the-job back injury that she and a doctor said was worsened by pregnancy, according to state documents released Thursday. "

Check out the link I posted on the prevous page....it goes into more detail about it.

lovesfortune

02-06-2009, 02:44 PM

ugh. :(

Horserider

02-07-2009, 09:47 AM

"(CBS/AP) The mother of newborn octuplets and six other children collected almost $168,000 in state disability payments for an on-the-job back injury that she and a doctor said was worsened by pregnancy, according to state documents released Thursday. "

Of course it was worsened by her pregnancy!!! Even a good back would probably have some damage after supporting the weight of eight children.

rocknK

02-07-2009, 09:56 AM

She already had six kids, don't you think that would make you a little nuts already??

mare

02-07-2009, 09:56 AM

Has anyone else seen that the CA Medical Board has begun an Ethics investigation?

Ryderd65

02-08-2009, 08:43 AM

If she gets $2 million for her story, then she can afford to pay back some of the money she's received from the state.

Isn't it probable that the state would pursue reimbursement if she suddenly becomes a millionaire? If insurance companies can, I would think the state could also.

Remali

02-08-2009, 05:59 PM

I had heard that there may be an investigation, glad to hear it is underway.

Tatesgram

02-12-2009, 11:05 AM

Remali

02-12-2009, 12:30 PM

Unbelievable she has the nerve to now ask for donations. It appears that she sure had this well-planned.

I heard on the radio today she has been getting death threats. I saw her interview on TV, she actually said she was using her student loans for the kids (and not for school apparently). They also showed pictures/video (can't remember which) of where she lived and reported and showed how filthy it was. I hope social services steps in real fast, she does not appear to be a fit mother and just seems to be having litters of kids to get money.

peace_baby

02-12-2009, 02:57 PM

Dr. Phil's talking about the octuplets now.

Apparently her church has volunteered to help her out with the kids.

I really think that the most responsible thing for her to do at this point, would be to adopt them out (maybe keep one, if that's what she wants). But having taxpayers help her take care of all 14 of her children is unfair. The kids didn't ask to be born, but they are here and they are fairly healthy. I think adopting them out to people who can't have kids and want them, is the best solution. That way no one is responsible who shouldn't have to be.

Remali

02-12-2009, 04:11 PM

I agree with you peace..... adopting them out would be in the children's best interest, no way can she take care of them all. I hope they get that woman some psychiatric help.

peace_baby

02-12-2009, 04:17 PM

Lol, they just said on tv that someone stated "I hope they get that woman a hysterectomy before she leaves the hospital."

I really hope that they get her some help, too.. I feel bad for her parents and all of those babies.

Miracle Whip

02-13-2009, 05:20 PM

There are a lot of sickos in this world. People hoarders, animal hoarders, baby hoarders, you name it. The sad thing is that a physician in the United States actually did this. That makes no sense to me at ALL. And since when did Medicare pay for artificial insemination? How can she get food stamps etc and yet obtain the services of this elite doctor?

CrazyManda

02-13-2009, 06:06 PM

Wow...I read about this a few days ago and I think this tops the charts for stupid people:mad: She was already on food stamps and she had 6 kids already..why on earth would anybody want MORE kids if you can't take care of the ones you already have. That is just retarded and the babies should be placed in better homes where the parents can actually afford them, and give them the love they need and deserve. Sometimes people just make NO sense to me:nono::mad:

mare

02-13-2009, 06:31 PM

Medicare or Medicaid will not pay for AI, IVF, or any other type.

I bet the doc cut his rates a bunch. Once she's pregnant Medicaid will pay for the pregnancy care, delivery and now extensive hospitalization. Even if this doc is sanctioned by medical boards, he will be worth a lot of money as a consultant or in a research position. He did whatever he did better than any other doc before him. And who else had a human guinea pig walk in a beg to have him try this?

Ethical? No way. Business savvy. You bet. His fines and loss of future hands-on obstetric business won't be missed.

Remali

02-13-2009, 08:38 PM

Well, hopefully the doctor will lose his license.

oursarge

02-14-2009, 05:00 AM

Web Site Created to Accept Donations for Octuplets' Mom

She accepts all major credit cards...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,491130,00.html

http://thenadyasulemanfamily.com/

(http://thenadyasulemanfamily.com/)

Unreal! I guess I'll be running there to donate....I don't think so! The sad thing is there are probably lots of donations rolling in, people will donate to anyone. They probably feel bad for the kids so they'll send money.

It boggles my mind when people do this then expect others to pay for them. I remember awhile back, I think the couple had 4 and by then 4 was like "OH WELL" since it had been done before. The father was on TV totally irate because the big companies weren't coming through with offers to help them [They were even hoping for a donted vehicle!] and people weren't sending them gifts and money. WHY? Nobody told them to have all those kids, they chose to be implanted, if they couldn't afford them they shouldn't have done it.

This whole thing is insane, I wonder if the state will take all the kids. I don't think taxpayers should have to pay for the 6 she has and now the 8 she has.

That Dr should be locked up but it's true he's getting lots of publicity, there are other people out there that want kids, he's had success so they'll be begging him to help them too. He's getting his 15 minutes of fame. He looks so smug, I'd like to smack that look off of his face. I guess she thinks she's Angelina Jolie or something. If she wants so many kids maybe she can get a big job and a rich guy like Bratt Pitt to pay for them. I think it's so unfair to have others pay for her kids. Adoption is a nice idea but it would be good if they could do something where the kids would have contact with each other, it seems sad to rip them apart from each other when they didn't ask to be born. It seems there is no good solution and the whackjob she is she'll probably have more.

I'll stick with my animals they are saner than most people!!!!

mare

02-14-2009, 07:25 AM

The doc doesn't need his license to consult to fertility clinics, research projects, or pharmaceutical companies. He still has his medical degree.

Usually a doc has to cause "harm" to lose a license, anyway. And medical view of what is "harm" is different than common sense idea of "harm."

Remali

02-14-2009, 08:01 AM

Mare, I heard tho that the doctor was under investigation. Apparently they are not supposed to implant that many embryos in a woman her age....so what he did was wrong. They were talking about it on TV. And here is something else I read.... taken from this site....

http://www.kvue.com/news/alvarez/stories/013009kvue_octuplets_fertility-cb.2b6eb80.html

" Dr Kaylen Silverberg, a fertility specialist at Texas fertility center in Austin, says federal law prohibits the transfer of that many embryos into any patient.

“If this woman, as reported in the news is really young, theoretically under 35, the guidelines clearly show she should have no more than two embryos transferred, and in fact if she is in the most favorable group -- she's got kids already -- supposedly she has six, she should theoretically just have one embryo transferred,” said Dr. Silverberg.

The Wyden Law, enacted in 1992, requires that fertility clinics submit all procedures performed on an annual basis to the Food and Drug Administration.

It also requires that no more than five embryos are implanted in any woman.

Dr. Silverberg says most insurance companies refuse to pay fertility doctors who do not follow the Wyden guidelines. "

Vibe

02-14-2009, 08:19 AM

She's probably spending all her government money on lip injections..Look at those things, fake. What a jack@$$..

mare

02-14-2009, 08:22 AM

So, he loses his license. It won't hurt him a bit financially. He's worth more now as a consultant than as a obstetrician. Easier job and no malpractice insurance, staff, or office costs to pay. It will be interesting to see how the med boards respond with this being such a high profile case.

Remali

02-14-2009, 10:16 AM

Perhaps, but his reputation and integrity is now badly tarnished. Who would trust him.

alittleoffkey

02-14-2009, 01:57 PM

I dunno Remali, he got all 6 of those embryos to implant, and got a couple of them to split. Some people may be willing to pay him an arm and a leg for his experience.

My favorite part of the interview was when she said "I'm not taking any money from the taxpayers." Who does she think pays for her disability, the three "slower" kids' disability, her food stamps... and nobody even mentioned the hospital bill.

Remali

02-15-2009, 09:41 AM

Not sure if you read that link I gave back there.....but what the doctor did was apparently illegal.....I don't see why anyone then would want anything to do with him..... I guess there may be a few people willing to break the law, I sure wouldn't trust a doctor willing to do that tho. And there were 8 embryos, not 6.

here is a part taken from the website....
"Dr Kaylen Silverberg, a fertility specialist at Texas fertility center in Austin, says federal law prohibits the transfer of that many embryos into any patient. "

http://www.kvue.com/news/alvarez/stories/013009kvue_octuplets_fertility-cb.2b6eb80.html

Anyway, at least that is what that website said and that physician that was interviewed had to say. It sure has created a huge mess.

menagerie

02-15-2009, 10:31 AM

I don't know if anyone has posted this yet but I heard this morning that her PR lady quit because she was getting too many death threats but that an agent to the stars has taken on the position. He was also the one that got the other family (John & Kate plus 8) their show, etc. Looks to me like she's getting exactly what she set out to do. I'm still wondering why her parents allowed this to continue when I've heard the mother say that she didn't condone (sp?) it. They could have contacted SS or something!

I really feel sorry for those babies!

Remali

02-15-2009, 12:19 PM

twofingers

02-15-2009, 09:53 PM

I find it odd too, that SS was not involved too. Just another person getting a free ride and it all could have been so easily avoided, the expense this has cost already is outrageous. The system should not continue to pay/support people like her who abuse the system.
remali, unfortunately the system will continue and encourage such irresponsible behavior. I am about 400 pages in to the stimulus bill and I am appalled at what they want to fund and encourage. but what bothers me even more are the laws that they are changing and how they are going about the "enforcement" of the policies about to be enacted. in a society where morality and ethics are transitory; and ethical relativeisim is the accepted norm. believe me to the current governmental reality you are spit in the wind and she is a saint.