Trail Bit Suggestions for a Haflinger

[Flair]

Here's the scoop: I'm currently riding Mitch in a full cheek snaffle with a french mouth. I really love the bit, it's mild and he works beautifully in it. I've been riding him in the bit for a year, as he was previously being ridden in a Tom Thumb shank bit when I bought him. I'm a really firm believer in riding in the mildest bit possible while working in the arena and then using it out on the trail.

Here's the problem I'm running into though: Mitch is your typical Haflinger. Greedy stomach-on-hooves. He's got a heck of a strong neck, and is a puller (and do I mean a puller.) When I rode him last Saturday, he spotted a patch of grass on the trail, and despite me practically hauling on his mouth (to no avail) he shoved his head groundwards and starting chowing down with me tugging at one rein. I'm seriously thinking about getting grass reins for this guy, but I'm also thinking that the french link snaffle just is NOT working for being out on the trail.

I don't get it. He works beautifully in the ring with it, and behaves so well. But when we go out on the trail, he's not bad. He's just not listening. He has a tendency to lean on the bit, especially walking downhill, and usually pulls those 'snatch-and-grab-at-grass' moments out of the blue.

I hate having to think that I need to 'bit him up' for trails because I'm of the opinion that training is what matters not the bit, and that I should be able to ride him in the same bit that I ride him in the arena. And it's not that he can't work in the french link snaffle, he doesn't want to.

Here's where you all come in: So uh ... any suggestions? I'm not really sure if I want to ride him in a curb bit, since he doesn't really need the leverage. I'd like to stay with a snaffle if I can. But the french link just doesn't work for trails.

[vicklynn]

I dont believe a bit controls a horse, the training does. Id get some flexing, disengaging, ect down pat. When City does that, and he is big on pulling to eat, I wrap that head around and disengage that butt. Sometimes a popper gets tossed in too.

[Palogal]

I would try a slow twist. If you're light handed he won't feel the "bite" unless he's pulling on you. Or an elevator uses leverage instead of a stronger mouth piece.
If you don't want to use a stronger but put one of those grazing muzzle thingys on him so even if he does pull you to the grass, he can't graze.

Another thought would be a bit burr on your snaffle. It's not mean like it sounds. It helps to convince him to turn when you ask him to.

[vicklynn]

Im sorry, I dont see why using a bit to let the horse feel pain is a good thing.
If I asked for this kind of advice on City, I would be told to do some training.
Im thinking the same thing applies to a Halfy. Dosnt it?

[Palogal]

Yes, of course, but she asked for bit options. The bits I mentioned would be the "next degree" above a snaffle IMO.
ETA: I would not use either of these bits on a regular basis. On the trail there is a need to enjoy the ride and save your training for the arena.

[WashingtonBay]

Saying that it's the training that matters not the bit is a lovely concept, and I support it. I really do. BUT, relying on the horse's training also requires a horse who is willing and eager to hear your next input and has no conflicting opinions of his own. It demands his participation in the plan. You don't have that. And if you don't have the physical strength to pull his head up, and he's ignoring you pulling on his mouth with all your strength, then that's not good training either. In fact, it's the worst kind of lesson.

I'd much rather ride in a bit that allows me to have light hands, than ride with a bit that is soft but requires hard cues. It's kinder to ride a harsher bit softly than it is to ride a mild bit harshly, IMHO.

I'd try switching to a jointed Kimberwick for trail if you want to be proper English... or a mechanical hack if you want to have something simple and casual for trail, but with a lot of leverage when you do need it.

But I'm not a snaffle bit truist. I won't ride in them on trained horses any more unless the horse is very responsive, all the time. I also never ride and school in arenas, we only ride trail, so that has a lot to do with it.

[vicklynn]

You are right in that area. But shouldnt we take a step back into training instead of offering a more severe bit? JMHO. If it dont work, back up and retrain. Thats what Ive always been told.

[Palogal]

Yes, that's right also. I guess if I was a random trail rider that just wanted a day off from schooling I would use a stronger bit and enjoy the ride in her situation. I would follow up in the arena with training as you said. If I was a regular trail rider and that's all I did I would train on the trail and make the trail ride into a training session with my snaffle.

[Cat]

I used to believe that, but after a few mishaps, I do believe in bitting up certain horses on the trail. Not all horses need this, but certain haflingers - especially young ones - have a HUGE food drive and that is combined with a super strong neck and a will of iron. You are not going to be able to budge that neck in a regular snaffle once their mind is set. Unfortunately once they realize they can do that - it can lead to more dangerous activities. Toby's food dives eventually lead to bracing the neck and plowing forward on trails as well and I had to bail to avoid a tree once. He listens beautifully in the arena - heck I can ride him BRIDLELESS in the arena. But there is no way I am going to ride him bridleless on the trails! Just because he is good at it in the arena does not mean its safe. Same with the snaffle. He's great in the arena, but its not enough to get his attention on the trails and I do need some leverage.

Also, as an old haflingerfriend use to hammer through my head when I had mishap after mishap on Toby - its not safe for you and its not fair to him. If you can get him to mind on the trail with a little pressure on a short shanked bit, that is a lot kinder to the horse than hauling on a snaffle and getting nowhere.

I ride Toby in either a bosal or a kimberwicke on the trail. (We are in a snaffle or bridleless in the arena.) However, Toby prefers a low port kimberwicke instead of a broken mouth one and this is probably what I will be riding in most of this summer.

The above mentioned haflingerfriend suggested short-shanked loose cheek low port colt starting bits. I'll have to see if I can find the links to the ones that she used. If you know how to ride in double reins, then I would suggest a pelham or double bridle. Then you can ride like a snaffle and only engage the shankes and curb when needed.

[vicklynn]

Yes, that's right also. I guess if I was a random trail rider that just wanted a day off from schooling I would use a stronger bit and enjoy the ride in her situation. I would follow up in the arena with training as you said. If I was a regular trail rider and that's all I did I would train on the trail and make the trail ride into a training session with my snaffle.
Got cha!!

[Palogal]

Somtimes, ya need a day off ;)

[TheRedHayflinger]

my haffy goes in a sidepull on the trail usually..or a D ring snaffle...if she starts to get grabby with her mouth on grass...I put a grass rein/check rein on her. Mine is made of baler twine, but you can buy them.

[WashingtonBay]

So it sounds like in terms of food drive, Haflingers are the Beagle of the horse world. ;)

[vicklynn]

Im off everyday, so I have no excuse...lol

I hate training on the trails, its a PITA, but trails is what I like, so thats where I have to work most.
I dont like grazers, it erks my shorts to no end, and City is a big pig. I wonder if one of those bits would work for a ride or 2, just to get him out the grass??? Hmmm
The arena is easy for City, he spent alot of time there.

[TheRedHayflinger]

I always thought of my haffy as a basset hound..i've known sooo many overweight food driven bassets....and haffys are like big horse bodies on short legs (at least my blimp is!)

[Cat]

So it sounds like in terms of food drive, Haflingers are the Beagle of the horse world. ;)

LOL - You could say that.

[vicklynn]

So it sounds like in terms of food drive, Haflingers are the Beagle of the horse world. ;)
LOL...I think City is part Beagal then.

So, whats up with a grass rein?

I hope Im not stealing the thread, but maybe that would be a good thing too, besides a bit.

[TheRedHayflinger]

grass rein...anti grazing rein...check rein...all the same thing...they keep the horse from jerking their head down to graze, but do not restrict their movement while under saddle so they still have free use of their head to balance and such..just not enough to reach down and chow down.

http://www.lollipoprocks.com/products_anti_grazing_reins_horse.html
http://www.onestopponyshop.co.uk/superbasket/product/219/Anti-Grass_Reins
http://www.custom-tack.com/images/gr.jpg

I just took my baler twine off of hay bales I'd fed, braided 3 strands together in about 4 foot sections..and then used them, but the leather or synthetic ones look nicer I suppose..LOL I don't use them every ride...but when she decides she's going to start grabbing for food, I dismount and put them on and then ride the next few rides in them...they are always in my saddlebags

[WashingtonBay]

There's a couple different ways to rig grass reins.

One: http://www.custom-tack.com/images/gr.jpg

Two: http://www.chobhamrider.com/contents/media/t_Grass-Reins.jpg

Also, not pictured, that works well for western anyhow, is a halter with a lead rope that is tied off to the horn just short enough that they can't reach the ground.

I think they're best used for children, who just don't have the physical strength to pull a grazing horse's head up if the horse decides to graze, no matter what the bit. IMHO, they carry some risk of the horse getting them snagged on something, or not being able to use his whole head and neck for balance in the event they are navigating tough terrain, or if they trip and need to recover. So I don't like them, except maybe for kids who have little other choice.

[vicklynn]

Aww, guess for safety reasons, I wont be using them.

[Palogal]

Im off everyday, so I have no excuse...lol

I hate training on the trails, its a PITA, but trails is what I like, so thats where I have to work most.
I dont like grazers, it erks my shorts to no end, and City is a big pig. I wonder if one of those bits would work for a ride or 2, just to get him out the grass??? Hmmm
The arena is easy for City, he spent alot of time there.

You know I'm a die hard snaffle advocate but once in a while, or temporarily I don't have a problem with stronger bits. It depends on if you're training for real or just taking a nice ride. To some degree you're always training, but some days ya don't feel like working on that. Even during "real training" I've switched out for a day or two and gone back if the horse is acceptionally hard headed. I would not and have never gone to a stronger bit permanently.

[vicklynn]

You know I'm a die hard snaffle advocate but once in a while, or temporarily I don't have a problem with stronger bits. It depends on if you're training for real or just taking a nice ride. To some degree you're always training, but some days ya don't feel like working on that. Even during "real training" I've switched out for a day or two and gone back if the horse is acceptionally hard headed. I would not and have never gone to a stronger bit permanently.
See, City can be a hard head, so Im thinking that I may try that bit, if only for a time or 2. Maybe.

[Palogal]

There's a couple different ways to rig grass reins.

I think they're best used for children, who just don't have the physical strength to pull a grazing horse's head up if the horse decides to graze, no matter what the bit. IMHO, they carry some risk of the horse getting them snagged on something, or not being able to use his whole head and neck for balance in the event they are navigating tough terrain, or if they trip and need to recover. So I don't like them, except maybe for kids who have little other choice.

I'll use them for a little kids lesson if the arena was acceptionally busy and I have to use a pasture. They work well. However, they get to a certain age they have to learn to correct that behavior.

[Palogal]

See, City can be a hard head, so Im thinking that I may try that bit, if only for a time or 2. Maybe.

It's a win win situation really as long as you're a skilled rider. Putting a strong bit in the hands of a greenie would be a disaster but that's not your situation. :)

[vicklynn]

Just to make sure of what Im looking at.
This is the bit your talking about Palo?
http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=1&pf_id=0030773

[Cat]

Toby is too smart for his own good and he knows when its a snaffle versus the kimberwicke or bosal. He doesn't try to graze with the kimberwicke or bosal. The first couple times we had them on and he tried to graze he found out it didn't work out so well and quit. Our rides have been very peaceful since. So last fall I decided to try the snaffle again.

HA! What an absolute miserable ride. Constantly fighting him from snatching grass - having to be extra watchful because if he actually got his head down to the grass, there was no way I was getting it up.

[WashingtonBay]

And BTW, Vicklynn.... I know some will always advise that any problem can be solved with a snaffle bit but I'm not one of them. If you were asking about City, I'd have answered the same as I did above for the haffie. Because of who you are and who City is. There's a difference between an untrained horse and an unskilled rider, who I'd advise needs to go to school before they just bit up... and a skilled rider with a horse who has all the basics but is stronger-willed than a snaffle bit works well for.

I used to be a snaffle truist, and I used to tolerate needing strong hands with strong horses, then I began a process of deciding that riding Bay that way was not any fun for either of us, and now I'll ride him in whatever allows me to be soft with him and still give cues that are meaningful, all the time, no matter what the conflicting motives and stimulus might be. The goal for me now, on trained horses, is cue softly and carry enough bit. It's a safety issue for both horse and rider on trail, when their ideas about how to evade the bear might be different than mine, and in that situation, I want to have a meaningful communication that trumps everything else, Period. :)

[Palogal]

Just to make sure of what Im looking at.
This is the bit your talking about Palo?
http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=1&pf_id=0030773

Yes, that's a slow twist.

[vicklynn]

And BTW, Vicklynn.... I know some will always advise that any problem can be solved with a snaffle bit but I'm not one of them. If you were asking about City, I'd have answered the same as I did above for the haffie. Because of who you are and who City is. There's a difference between an untrained horse and an unskilled rider, who I'd advise needs to go to school before they just bit up... and a skilled rider with a horse who has all the basics but is stronger-willed than a snaffle bit works well for.

I used to be a snaffle truist, and I used to tolerate needing strong hands with strong horses, then I began a process of deciding that riding Bay that way was not any fun for either of us, and now I'll ride him in whatever allows me to be soft with him and still give cues that are meaningful, all the time, no matter what the conflicting motives and stimulus might be. The goal for me now, on trained horses, is cue softly and carry enough bit. It's a safety issue for both horse and rider on trail, when their ideas about how to evade the bear might be different than mine, and in that situation, I want to have a meaningful communication that trumps everything else, Period. :)
Ok, works for me. I understand.

[Cat]

Well said WB.

I've never liked twisted snaffles. Every time I've seen them used I've also seen a horse trying desperately to evade the bit.

[Palogal]

Well said WB.

I've never liked twisted snaffles. Every time I've seen them used I've also seen a horse trying desperately to evade the bit.

I would guess you've only seen hard handed riders use them;). A slow twist is not as agressive as a twisted wire, those on the other hand are one of the few bits I do not own.

[WashingtonBay]

I would tend to agree Cat. I've never been a fan of painful mouthpieces. The horse has to wear the bit all day.... and I'd rather have a comfortable mouthpiece that has leverage when needed than I would a harsher mouthpiece.

[Cat]

I would guess you've only seen hard handed riders use them;). A slow twist is not as agressive as a twisted wire, those on the other hand are one of the few bits I do not own.

Well with one rider she rode mostly by her seat and a loose-rein and the horse still tried to evade the mouthpeice in his mouth. Hard to be hard-handed when your reins are slack. ;)

[Palogal]

I would tend to agree Cat. I've never been a fan of painful mouthpieces. The horse has to wear the bit all day.... and I'd rather have a comfortable mouthpiece that has leverage when needed than I would a harsher mouthpiece.

If you're soft handed it's 6 of one half a dozen of the other and a matter or preference. The bit does not hurt if it's just sitting in the mouth as long as it fits properly. It does not hurt at all if it's used correctly. Leverage bits put a lot of pressure on the bars that can cause bruising and pain too if used too hard.

[WashingtonBay]

I might agree in principle palo that it's 6 of one and half-dozen of the other, and good people may choose either. For show you may have to stick with a snaffle too, but that's not a consideration for me, and I just prefer leverage to twisted mouthpieces. The type of pressure a curb applies and where is, I think, better and more encouraging of softness and collection than a sharper mouthpiece is. A sharp edge is always a sharp edge, IMHO.

[Palogal]

I've used both and really have no preference, but I see your point :) I recommend leverage over mouth piece to customers that insist on a stronger bit but don't need one. Some folks don't listen to you even when they are paying you for your advise and when it's their horse...

[oursarge]

So it sounds like in terms of food drive, Haflingers are the Beagle of the horse world. ;)


Yep, mine is only part Haflinger and everything he does is ruled by food. If he sees a new person he will follow them all over for a potential meal. When I was trail riding him he once jumped a ditch to get at grass. I was very new to riding and about had a stroke then the brat ran down a hill with me. He's got a snaffle bit, actually his trainer calls it a training bridle that all of her young horses use. He's mostly fine but if he thought food was on the other side of the road he'd take off across the road after it no matter what I did!

He's the cutest and friendliest horse but he has food issues [he's not aggressive with it just likes it!] he likes pretty much everything but apple flavor and he can be a little pushy, I have taught him he had to back up before he gets anything to eat, he needs to stay out of my space.

I didn't ride him last year because he had an eye issue that lasted for months, we did alot of ground work but he wasn't ridden so I don't know what I'll face this year, he might need to go back to his trainer for a few lessons.

[TheRedHayflinger]

I've never had any balance issues while using a grass rein...as as to getting snagged on something--i ride in areas of dense shrub and tree growth and steep hills...If I would happen to get snagged on something, I have a knife and can easily and quickly slice the baler twine (another reason I use it as opposed to the leather or synthetic kind that cost money..haha). However, that has never happened and if properly fitted, shouldn't happen--just like with any other piece of tack--bridles, breastcollars, etc. They are not adjusted tight, she still has pretty much free range of motion with her head, but just can't get it down that extra bit to graze. She has stumbled once or twice while wearing it, and she recovered just the same as if she would not have been wearing it. Again..I keep it in my saddlebags...but we use it maybe once or twice a year when she needs a "refresher".

I have also found that pulling the head to the side and up is way more effective than pulling straight up...and kinder on the mouth...it also takes less force to pull the head around and then up compared to pulling straight up.

As to the bit harshness and such...some horses just don't like the feel of some bits in their mouths either...my haffy can tell if she has a nice thick bit in her mouth, which she prefers, as opposed to something thinner, which she'll start spazzing about as soon as it's in her mouth and before I can even think about mounting up. I had a friends mare here once...and you could only ride her in a gag bit. She was so soft and responsive in one of those...but put her in anything else or something "kinder" and she was hard mouthed and would rush through it...my friend got sooo much crap about riding in a "mean ol' gag bit" to the point she told one person to put in his wonder snaffle bit of kindness(as she called it) and mount up and see what happened..LOL

Good luck finding something that works for you and your food driven pony so you can have fun out on the trails!!!! Looks like you've gotten a lot of great advice so far1

[3equines]

Before advice, here's a Haflinger anecdote.

I rode Taz and ponied Peach (Haffie) yesterday. She got really tired and was dragging at the end of the pony rope on the way home. We have to cross a highway before geting to my pasture. My horses always trot across the highway (verbal command). Well, Peach decided it was too much work to trot, pulled back, and I lost the pony rope, but I kept Taz going across because I knew Peach would follow. Well, we get across and through the open gate, Peach stopped RIGHT AT THE EDGE OF THE HIGHWAY...... to eat. Yep. Head in the grass, cars and trucks buzzing by, her ONLY concern being that grass.


Sweet P (Haflinger) can be very willful, and like you I prefer the milder bit and am using a french link full-cheek snaffle on her. What I have found with that awful grab-and-go thing:

Spurs! Yes, spurs. And perfect timing. Get that rein and pull it down and in, and on the SAME SIDE you are pulling on the rein get your spur into the side, do NOT release the pressure until your horse brings his head up or moves forward. At first you may get a 'jump' forward, in a circle, or to the side. You have also thrown your weight while pulling the reing and moving your spur in, this throws the horse's balance off and they HAVE to move their feet to compensate. Pretty soon you will be able to 'pop' the rein (quick, firm, jerk) and put the spur in while your horse is reaching for a mouthful, and keep it moving forward. The key here is QUICK QUICK QUICK with a LOT of pressure and INSTANT release when your horse changes its behavior (forward motion or bringing its head back up). What you have is not just a bit issue, and a harder bit will just make a more willful and harder mouth.

This souds terribly cruel, but if you are ON IT and can react as quickly as your horse, it will put a stop to the rein- grabbing.

I never used spurs before I had a Haflinger. They have saved me countles battles with the reins. Most of the time I don't have to put the spurs on Sweet P, and then it is usually a 'reminder' to listen to my leg.

[Cat]

a harder bit will just make a more willful and harder mouth.


Depends on how you use it. The kimberwicke and bosal that I use with Toby on the trails has not done that. Its made for a very pleasureable trail mount, yet he is nice and light when going back to the snaffle in the arena. That is in part due to the fact that I'm NOT hauling on his mouth with a snaffle trying to get him not to eat grass.

Spurs are an idea for those who are comfortable using them. I would be very uncomfortable riding in spurs and constantly fearfully would accidently catch him in the side. Not the greatest for a relaxing trail ride.

LOVE the story of peach. That is your typical haflinger!

[Flair]

Wow, ask a question, go to work and the thread runs away from me. Maybe the thread needs a stronger bit (I kid I kid!)

Since I've never had the opportunity to really be around a beagle or a basset hound, I'll defer to those who have when it comes to comparisons of Haflingers and said dogs. One thing I do know is that Haflingers can be very very single minded about food, and they have very strong necks and big massive heads. And it works to their advantage that way, especially with Mitch. It's not that he's a bad horse on the trail, he's really well-behaved for the most part. He's just got that leaning issue and when he gets his head down low enough, it's almost impossible for me to get it back up.

I definitely do feel strongly that the training really goes into the horse, and I've always subscribed to the thought that you should work on the training of the horse, and not resort to stronger bits. Maybe Flair spoiled me, because he was a super old guy and I could go cantering down the beach in full flight in nothing but an eggbutt snaffle, and he's be responsive and alert to everything I wanted. I know he was fully capable of running through that bit if he wanted to, and being a Thoroughbred, no bit in the world was going to stop him with little teenaged me on his back. But I never felt like he needed a stronger bit. We did flatwork and jumpers in that bit, and out on the trail, he was super.

But of course, I need to give Mitch his fair shake too, and realize that Mitch is not Flair. He's much younger for one thing, and much much more headstrong than the old boy ever was. Like I said, he's not bad, he just has different opinions and doesn't want to do things if he's got something he feels is better (like eating). And it's hard to force him. I can hit this guy all day with the riding crop, and he's not going to budge if he doesn't want to. On Saturday, I gave him a number of good hand swats and he still tried to graze. Circling on the trail didn't help much either because every time I brought him back to the spot we needed to go down the trail, he'd make a dive for the patch of grass. Training would address this, but WB does make a good point that training relies on a horse that's going to want to listen. Mitch is good, he really is. He's not the kind of horse that shies at things, or spooks, or tries to crowd. He's just heavier in the front, and he's using it to his advantage. I normally don't have issues with him, but we do have our differences when we are out on the trail as opposed to being in the ring. And since I mainly trail ride, I want to make sure that both Mitch and I are comfortable with what we're doing. It may very well be that the full cheek snaffle with the french mouth is too mild of a bit for him when we're not in an arena setting as there are too many distractions.

I'll continue to do my reading, but thank you all for the suggestions that have been put forth so far, particularly from Cat and TheRedHayflinger and 3equines as they all have Haffies, and it's nice to hear what is working for them. I have considered spurs, but I'm afraid my leg isn't the tightest when it comes to the rotund little porker I own (my leg does tend to swing a bit much no matter how much I try and keep it still, and I'd be worried I'd keep jabbing him in the side) and I don't really like the feel of the spur on my foot.

Anyway, thanks for all the suggestions, and I'll look into my options there. Mitch is working very nicely in the arena in his full cheek snaffle (although we have a bit of a scuffle getting in there because of the grass) and he's certainly good on the trails, it's just when we have those flare-ups and he turns into a stubborn mule-head, that I've considered needing a stronger bit out there. I suppose as it's been put by WB and Cat, better to have the strong bit to only need to use occasionally than to have the milder bit and not be able to use it at all. I want to continue riding him in the french-link snaffle as much as I can, but I feel like our trail training is ineffective when he gets into the Food-NOW! mindset and doing what Cat described Toby doing -- that head goes down, and it's hard to get him back up.

Hopefully we'll find something that works for us. We've got time to figure things out.

[3equines]

Good luck, Flair. I have to constantly re-think my approach with Haflinglers. I would not give up Sweet P for the world, but she is very young, very strong-willed, and very powerful. They are so trainable, with consistency, and I know that someday... some day... we, too, may go cantering down the beach with an eggbutt snaffle.... sigh! Happy trails!http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=481&pictureid=5424&thumb=1 (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/album.php?albumid=481&pictureid=5424)

[Flair]

Thanks 3equines. Flair was 20+ years old when we go flying down the beach, so it''s possible that over time Mitch will become less headstrong and pushy, and is can be ridden in a snaffle on the trails. But like you said, Haflingers force us to constantly re-think our approaches with them, and what we do with them.

I want to ride Mitch in the mildest bit as possible for us, mainly because I believe in riding in the mildest bit and because we've all been taught the snaffle is the bit we need to use. But then, I can see WB's point that sometimes mild isn't the answer and we need something that goes along the lines of "Do this for me now." as opposed to "do ... this ... now ...please."

Hopefully we'll find something that works. I think the key is to find the mildest bit we can get away with, but still having enough punch that he can't ignore it. I think that's the problem with the french link. It's just too mild for the trails on a strong pony that pulls.

[Flair]

Any thoughts on the English jumping hackamore?

http://www.chicksaddlery.com/page/CDS/PROD/3030/KS1940

WB, didn't you use one on your mare at some point?

A couple of horses at my barn are ridden in these.

[TheRedHayflinger]

I rode my first mare in one of those...not a haffy, but a very green, wanting to run away all the time TWH that had been sitting in the field since she was a 4 y/o. She just didn't like bits, and I had one of those laying around....she loved it

[WashingtonBay]

Any thoughts on the English jumping hackamore?

http://www.chicksaddlery.com/page/CDS/PROD/3030/KS1940

WB, didn't you use one on your mare at some point?

A couple of horses at my barn are ridden in these.

Yeah - we own one and used it to see how our mare would do in a hack.

My complaint with it is that it's rather cheap and flimsy. And the whole show rotates when you apply it, leading to it moving down on the nose, and moving the bridle closer to the horse's eye. Our mare actually closed her eyes when you applied it, which we viewed as 'not good' ;).

If you want a hackamore for the long term, I'd get a better quality, mechanical hackamore.

Edited to add pic of it in use:

[Cat]

Well you have had lots of good infor and things to try in this thread. And I'm sure many of us with haflingers know what you are going through. When I first got Toby I was gun-ho about bitless - bits, even snaffles, were evil, you know? LOL. I laugh at myself in those early years. And I do ride Toby bitless on the trails with a bosal, but you know what? those things are all that mild either, there is a good tug if you need it. On the other hand, my husbands draft cross who is green broke goes all fine and well in just a basic sidepull. It never stops to amaze me the difference that I see in these haflingers. They are opinionated and strong willed. Wonderful personalities but they do have an opinion on things which I believe comes from their intelligence.

I remember one of the first suggestions I had for grass eating. Hit em with a crop - if he's moving forward, he can't eat. BULL. That boy got very proficient and keeping his head down and trotting while grabbing bits of grass. Very unsettling for the rider to be going at a trot with no neck or anything in front of you. And even trying to pull from the side won't move those heavy heads and necks.

And you know what? Once Mitch gets some more maturity on him and he fully respects you as a leader, you may be able to do those canters in an egg butt. Just because you move to something safer now does not mean something like that is out of the question in the future.

As to the hack in question - I don't know. I tried a traditional hackmore with longer shanks and a rubber nose peice on Toby and I did not like it. Toby didn't either (he's very easy to read if he likes a certain peice or not). Despite the shanks on it, I felt it was sloppy and had no real control. But that is with Toby. Mitch maybe completely different. What I suggest is to get into the tack swaps and try several different things.

[TheRedHayflinger]

that is waaaaaay too far down on the nose.

I love mine and it's held up great. It's about 15 years old now and looks new. Depends on what company has made it and if they've used quality materials.

Here is the mare I used it on...I never had an issue with it rotating or anything either...if you want proof, I can go dig up my photo CDs and hunt down a closeup of her head while being ridden..LOL. The cheek pieces need to be shortened quite a bit for one of these to fit properly
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v654/ohiogoat/riding7.jpg

[WashingtonBay]

It's in the same spot on the nose as yours before it rotates, but the main point I didn't like is how she'd flinch with it by her eye. For that horse, on that face, the thing didn't fit right.

This is the one we use now...

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=117&pictureid=751

[Flair]

So I borrowed an english hackamore from a friend of mine today, put it on and took Mitch out on part of the barn trails. It wasn't bad, although I can see what WB means about having the cheek strap too close to the eye. It wasn't that bad with Mitch, but ... it could be that bridle. Worth looking at the issue anyway.

Mitch was very well behaved today on the trails. I was riding him in a loose rein, actually much looser than I usually ride him in a snaffle and would have been almost 'on the buckle' with quite a bit of slack in the rein. And yet, he carried his head lower in the hackamore with no bit in his mouth than he's carried it with the snaffle. And yet, when he tried dropping his head a few times to graze, I just sat tall, squeezed my hands to tighten the reins and put a little contact in, and he brought his head right back up. It was actually a pretty neat ride. No constant tugging from my hands to keep him from dropping his head and evading the bit. Mitch seemed less annoyed with me on his mouth all the time. I think I'll school a few more times in the english hackamore and then look around at some of our options.

I might even stick with the english hack, Mitch seems to be all right with it, although it's kind of small for his face (gonna order a turquoise noseband in a larger size) unless I can find a different mechancial hack with similar shanks (and I think Mitch likes the wider noseband with the fake fleece.)

[3equines]

sidepull. It never stops to amaze me the difference that I see in these haflingers. They are opinionated and strong willed. Wonderful personalities but they do have an opinion on things which I believe comes from their intelligence.


HA HA..... and I am going to get a MULE colt out of Sweet P!!!!! :hysterical:

WB's flat-nosed hackamores are really the best. I used one on Sweet P during her first few months of riding, and used one on Taz for the first 3 years I had him (big big bit anxiety issues on that boy).

You may consider a 'stop-and-turn' type hackamore. It has a stiff leather nosepiece and curb chain, but also has a snaffle tyoe bit. Look for one with a bigger, milder bit. Some of them are pretty nasty (thin, twisted wire).

[TheRedHayflinger]

i think a lot of the cheekpiece too close to the eye on a lot of bridles is due to a too short across of a browband. I'm seeing a lot of bridles close to the eye in pictures, and I never have one that close, and when I do, it's fixed by removing the browband and putting one on that is about an inch or so longer.


Glad to hear he liked the english hack :) Once I get a smaller curb chain for mine, I'm going to try it on my haffy...she likes her sidepull just fine, but I love this hack and it won't fit my other pony (she has a tiny little head)...and I hate to see it just sitting here..LOL

[Flair]

i think a lot of the cheekpiece too close to the eye on a lot of bridles is due to a too short across of a browband. I'm seeing a lot of bridles close to the eye in pictures, and I never have one that close, and when I do, it's fixed by removing the browband and putting one on that is about an inch or so longer.


Glad to hear he liked the english hack :) Once I get a smaller curb chain for mine, I'm going to try it on my haffy...she likes her sidepull just fine, but I love this hack and it won't fit my other pony (she has a tiny little head)...and I hate to see it just sitting here..LOL

I had the hack on my dressage/barn bridle which is black leather with a bit of bling on a warmblood-sized browband and it wasn't terribly close to his eye, but it was closer than I'd like. I'm going to swap it off onto my trail bridle which has a really long browband (well compared to other browbands anyway) and see how that goes. I'm thinking, even if I end up with a kimberwick bit or something, I'll keep the english hack for trading off. Gal can never have too much tack after all. :hysterical:

[TheRedHayflinger]

can never have too much tack! :D I think I have around 20 or so bits....and only use 2 of them...and even then, not all the time. But most of them are gaited horse bits, and they are too big for my gaited pony...

my friend who had my haffy up in MI for the past couple of years put this one bit on her, and my haffy LOVES it....that's all I've really ridden her in since I got her back in Nov....I did do a couple of rides in our yard in a halter only and once in the sidepull because I was too lazy to go up to my room to get her bridle...I forget what she called it, but I can go get a pic of it if you'd like. Erin said she switched her to it when she stopped listening to the sidepull (her mom rode her for awhile, and let her get away with grazing out on rides). I wouldn't say it's harsher...but it's a bit, which is a bit more "listen here! do what I say" than the sidepull is of course

[WashingtonBay]

Mitch was very well behaved today on the trails. I was riding him in a loose rein, actually much looser than I usually ride him in a snaffle and would have been almost 'on the buckle' with quite a bit of slack in the rein. And yet, he carried his head lower in the hackamore with no bit in his mouth than he's carried it with the snaffle. And yet, when he tried dropping his head a few times to graze, I just sat tall, squeezed my hands to tighten the reins and put a little contact in, and he brought his head right back up. It was actually a pretty neat ride. No constant tugging from my hands to keep him from dropping his head and evading the bit. Mitch seemed less annoyed with me on his mouth all the time. I think I'll school a few more times in the english hackamore and then look around at some of our options.


This is a very good update indeed! I'm glad, and I agree, if he respects the bit you're using and you're not having to be in his mouth all the time, then everyone is happier and more relaxed. I came to the same realization with my Bay, after fighting him a lot of years on trail in a plain snaffle.

[vicklynn]

Very good news!! Glad the Hack worked. Do you have a pic of the one you used, or a link to one. Im not sure about not using a bit on City, but would try. Im sure he would work, he is trained off the head, not the bit...if that makes sence.

[Cat]

That is great news!

[Country Girl 43]

Our Missy has a problem of pulling her head. She completely ignores the bit. I was thinking of using one of those Hackamore/bit combos. At least till she learns to give to the pressure.

Where she came from they were pretty hard on her mouth so she learned to be hard mouthed and you really have to pull to get her attention. I think with the combination of the hack/bit it will help to teach her to just give to the pressure.

[Cat]

HA HA..... and I am going to get a MULE colt out of Sweet P!!!!! :hysterical:


Hey, I would LOVE to have a haflinger mule. *sigh* someday...

[WashingtonBay]

I would too Cat. That's a terrific cross :) That or a gaited one. I had to try to keep up with a gaited mule on a ride once who was pretty hard to beat!

[TheRedHayflinger]

i've seen some really gorgeous haffy mules.....

and I really want a mule..but I have to say, I'd breed my gaited mare to a local gaited producing jack for a spotted gaited pony mule :D

[Flair]

A Haflinger mule! Now that'd be a project to find a saddle for. :innocent: Someone said once that Mitch didn't look that much different backwise from a mule. Maybe he's not so purebred as we thought. :hysterical:

A sweet P half-mule baby would be awful cute though. :D

Very good news!! Glad the Hack worked. Do you have a pic of the one you used, or a link to one. Im not sure about not using a bit on City, but would try. Im sure he would work, he is trained off the head, not the bit...if that makes sence.

It was really a nice ride. He carried his head lower than when he goes in a snaffle, I think because I wasn't on his mouth the entire time trying to keep him from getting his head down, and he went along very nicely. Only when I needed that leverage, I just had to tweak my hands a little, and he was very much "Yes, ma'am, listening, ma'am!" It sure beat yanking and tugging and pulling with all my might, and not being able to even budge that enormous head and strong neck of his. Worth continuing to try on him since he's listening so well.

I posted the link farther up, but here it is again:

http://www.chicksaddlery.com/page/CDS/PROD/3030/KS1940

That's the Korsteel english hackamore than my friend let me borrow. I was going to buy it, but I got the Herm Sprenger Short Shank Hackamore instead.

http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-0109&tid=froogle&CATALOG_CODE=1X814&EID=X1814001&zmam=1460880&zmas=1&zmac=49&zmap=X1-0109

Found that on eBay and paid $36. Major bargain, ayup.

[WashingtonBay]

It was really a nice ride. He carried his head lower than when he goes in a snaffle, I think because I wasn't on his mouth the entire time trying to keep him from getting his head down, and he went along very nicely. Only when I needed that leverage, I just had to tweak my hands a little, and he was very much "Yes, ma'am, listening, ma'am!" It sure beat yanking and tugging and pulling with all my might, and not being able to even budge that enormous head and strong neck of his. Worth continuing to try on him since he's listening so well.

That lower head placement is also a function of the pressure at the poll that the hackamore provides.

Bay actually has a very upright carriage, and I like him that way... After several rides in the hackamore, when he's feeling like a WP horse, I like to put him back in his Kimberwick that brings his neck back up a little :) I like him there in front of me :)

[TheRedHayflinger]

i never noticed a head carriage difference in my TWH mare when I rode her in the hack, compared to her bit....always right up there in your face..LOL. Friend I boarded with had mainly owned/ridden western pleasure QHs and she always commented that it felt like my mare was 2 seconds from rearing on her because the head was wwaaaaaay up there!

But I do agree...I love having that head right up there in front of me....some of those QHs I rode before that were WP horses, i felt like if they stumbled I'd roll right over top of their heads...and they didn't even have a true low headset either...poll was a few inches above withers at the lowest...it was just lower than I was used to!