fish and wildlife issues thread

[cheval]

Discuss your fish and wildlife issues here.

So I did some checking on the Mt. St. Helens issue.

Background for non-Washington folks. Last year we had over 150 elk die off due to lack of food. We do not make a habit of providing food for elk herds unless there are crop loss issues. There was a huge outcry over there, but it is is not sound biology to feed animals during the winter. Winter kills are a part of the cycle. However, it was a pretty bad thing.

So, the question someone had on the BO animal agenda thread was why not have more hunting permit. I found out that it's not as easy as just having more permits in the hunting unit. You have to take the existing number of elk, factor in harvest, winter kill, predation and a few other things to get a good number that can be used for permits (this is a special hunt area and people put in for a special draw).

What they did do was increase the type of hunting so you can use muzzleloader, archery or general firearm instead of just one type.

It isn't looking like we will be in as bad a place last year with the elk so there is no plans on any emergency feeding. And again, it's not something we do unless several factors come into play.

[WashingtonBay]

Seems like they'd have more actually taken if they just extended rifle season, or added another special rifle season. Muzzle loader season is something of a novelty in terms of actual numbers, isn't it? And archery is questionable for big game like elk, IMHO.

We almost always see them up there when we go, but you're right, many areas are still sparse with vegetation and cover. Much of the habitat is still moonscape.

[cheval]

Harvest has been down so they extended the type of hunting you can do and that might make up. I was surprised at how complex it is to come to a number for hunting permits. I thought it'd be as easy as just adding more permits but that is exactly the opposite of what should be done from what I learned today.

This is a really good press release our agency recently did on why it's not a good idea to feed:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/do/newreal/release.php?id=jan0709a

[WashingtonBay]

It's both an art and a science, I think, to know how many permits to issue. An old family friend who was Game Warden in Arizona used to talk about it. And when and why to add doe seasons too.

[WashingtonBay]

This is a really good press release our agency recently did on why it's not a good idea to feed:

http://wdfw.wa.gov/do/newreal/release.php?id=jan0709a

Well, and as a specific issue, if you're talking about inside the Volcanic Monument, it's very much an experiment in recovery, and the natural return of sustainable numbers is part of what that experiment can teach. Feeding them is cheating. Now... down in the Weyerhauser and other private forests, the growth is much more, and perhaps the survival better too?

As for the monument, it's really kindof neat that they left it, to see what happens when you leave it alone. We usually go at least every year, and it's a neat perspective to see it come back. In fact, I remember the first time we saw elk, and thought it a really big deal. I only wish they'd have left some of the standing dead toothpick forest. I remember that. In the years right after the eruption. It was really eerie.

[rocknK]

When you add up a hunters true "costs" each one of those elk probably "cost" the state around $5000. if a hunter had been allowed to humanely harvest them rather than letting them starve to death. How can you call that effective game management??

[ImaBronsonBear]

I didn't know there was so much that went into issueing a couple of hunting permits! Wow.

[mare]

I appreciate that wildlife biologists have the natural cycle of the animals their first priority. I also appreciate the amount of data collected continuously on herds, forage, water, air, disease, and probably a lot I don't even think about!

I think they are in a real tough spot balancing pressure from all sides (nature, special interests groups). It seems like some would like the F&W to run a public game ranch and others want wildlife to be in some imagined utopian state with equal numbers of everything and all dying peacefully in their sleep.

I don't envy y'all, but am grateful for the work you do.

[Ranger44]

One of the hardest things about working for the public is that someone will almost always be unhappy with choices made by the government. Even if the unhappy ones are the smallest minority they will complain and it will usually be loudly. The happy and satisfied people rarely make much noise.

I have seen laws/decisions made or changed by a legislator responding to one constituent. We had a law changed in MN because a legislator's husband got arrested. You have to go with your training and experience and believe you are doing the best thing for the overall picture.

How many people have had someone with no training or background in their field tell them how to do their job and are sure they know more than the professional?

Fish and wildlife management like many other fields is not an exact science. That's one reason so many hunting and fishing regulations are "experimental."

[cheval]

I don't think I've really met anyone - except now mare! - that's been happy with what we do. I take that back. The kids and their families express a lot of happiness at the fishing events.

I don't know the specifics of the why's but I know that we weren't able to just send a bunch of people in there to kill the elk that were dying. And it's not just here this happens. It happens at Yellow Stone and a bunch of big name parks. Weather related die off is a part of life and an expected part. No body wants to hear that but it's true.

As far as the dead trees being left at the Monument. Eerie yes, forest healthy....no.

[HoustonFarrier]

I don't think I've really met anyone - except now mare! - that's been happy with what we do. .

You got my vote!!! When I was stationed at Ft Bragg, NC, the wife of my best friend worked for the wildlife dept.(or whatever they called it) She'd tell us when they were going to go to a lake, and shock the fish, to do measurements and statistics, so we used to go watch.....it was cool !(Plus, we'd know where to fish !!! ) :)

Steve

[WashingtonBay]

I don't think I've really met anyone - except now mare! - that's been happy with what we do. I take that back. The kids and their families express a lot of happiness at the fishing events.

I don't have a problem with most of the fish and game management I've seen, that fish and game even has control over... some things, like the Boldt Decision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boldt_Decision) or the Voter Initiatives banning Bait and Hounds... you don't. You just have to try to enforce the consequences of them.

There are exceptions to my support... Barbless hooks for salmon, for instance... is viewed as intentionally crippling the sport fishery to protect Indian and Commercial catch.


Back in the day, most Fisheries and Game enforcement and policy people were outdoorsmen and hunters. It's been feared that that is changing, and there is a lefty hippy environmentalist element there now that is changing the tone of Fish and Game policy... comment on that?


I don't know the specifics of the why's but I know that we weren't able to just send a bunch of people in there to kill the elk that were dying. And it's not just here this happens. It happens at Yellow Stone and a bunch of big name parks. Weather related die off is a part of life and an expected part. No body wants to hear that but it's true.Well, when they're dying it's too late. Hunters want healthy fat animals in the fall. Winter kill is too late, and not the best time for hunting. Winter conditions are highly variable. Hard winters can get them, even with a good hunting policy. I don't blame Fish and Game for that.

No comparison to Yellowstone and Park policies... there's not hunting at all allowed in National Parks. They're NOT managed game.

As far as the dead trees being left at the Monument. Eerie yes, forest healthy....no.But the point of the monument is not forest health... it's natural observation of recovery, or they'd have replanted it over 20 years ago like the Weyerhauser land was.

They should have left some of it is all... it's part of what happened.

Mount St. Helens / cc-standing-dead_tif.jpg (http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/mtsthelens/photo-gallery/photos/pages/cc-standing-dead_tif_jpg.htm)

[cheval]

Actually, forest health is a very big part of the monument management. Just as fish reintroduction and getting the returning elk/deer herds. It wasn't all natural, believe me. And now we are in the Spirit Lake stuff, trying to get some access to the lake so the fish don't all stunt out.

Yellowstone and the Monument show that elk herds go through cycles that include die off - regardless of whether hunting is allowed or not.

The thing about the voter crap that went on with the bait and dog ban for bears/cougars - people do think it as are fault. That's why when we do these sportsman's shows we get beat down for this and MANY other things.

Steve - I operate an 18' electroshocking boat that I use every summer to go after warmwater fish and see how their populations are doing. It is A LOT of fun.

It's good to know there are some supportive people out there. Because I tell you, after a 10 hour day on the job - you can come home really beat down and wondering if you're doing any good at all. It is all about education - and there's a big lack of it out there when it comes down to what we really do. We try to remedy that, but still, it goes on.

As far as the elk herds - they have a 'formula' that they use to determine what should be harvested and how many permits to put out there. It's a special draw. So you have to make your choices by June and then you get picked by a lottery method to see if you draw a tag. There's no accounting for extra hard winters, flood events etc. - things that can't be predicted. That might be part of what happened with the die off last year. It's still a bit confusing even to me, but when the wildlife bio's talk about it, they seem very confident with how they make the choices and that's good enough for me.

I'm trout/warmwater and grass carp oriented but work a lot with the others. We have similar dilemmas. Just different outcomes sometimes.

[cheval]

There are exceptions to my support... Barbless hooks for salmon, for instance... is viewed as intentionally crippling the sport fishery to protect Indian and Commercial catch.

And yet is primarily there to protect listed salmon. The sport/commercial fishery issues is getting downright stupid. Neither side realizes how much the bio's go through to make things EQUAL for both side. Days upon days are dedicated to meetings to figure out what the return forecast is and how many go to commercial and how many go to sportsman and it never matters what the numbers are, neither are happy and we are the bad guys.

Then you get all that done and something freaky happens and you don't get the numbers back you thought you were going to get. Then you spend more days meeting again to adjust those harvest numbers and all hell breaks loose even more.

The fact of the matter is, the agency is dedicated to providing equal fishing opportunity to all groups and neither makes it an easy job.

[WashingtonBay]

Yellowstone and the Monument show that elk herds go through cycles that include die off - regardless of whether hunting is allowed or not.

The thing about the voter crap that went on with the bait and dog ban for bears/cougars - people do think it as are fault. That's why when we do these sportsman's shows we get beat down for this and MANY other things.

Oh I get ya now, on the Yellowstone comparison.

On the bear and cougar thing, I know what the story is, I'm not among the confused. There are many things that the average voter is simply not qualified to manage, and game management is just one of them. Fish and Game is best managed by biologists in fish and game, not hippies in Seattle.

For 4 out of the last five years, bear season has been pretty much all spring, summer and fall in the forest where I ride, because hunters couldn't take enough of them under the new rules to meet the goals. The bears bears have all the advantage.

[cheval]

It is a matter of time before some gets killed by bear or cougar and people will be demanding a recall in the cougar/bear bait/dog ban. The fact is not enough are harvested without them. It is NOT a cruel method of hunting. It is a technique no different than the difference between deer/elk/geese/grouse.

We just hold our breath every spring. Last fall we dealt with a foal that had been carried off from her mom right in front of a house. Cougars wander through school yards. We are on top of them the minute these things happen but we are on borrowed time.

[WashingtonBay]

There are exceptions to my support... Barbless hooks for salmon, for instance... is viewed as intentionally crippling the sport fishery to protect Indian and Commercial catch.

And yet is primarily there to protect listed salmon. The sport/commercial fishery issues is getting downright stupid. Neither side realizes how much the bio's go through to make things EQUAL for both side. Days upon days are dedicated to meetings to figure out what the return forecast is and how many go to commercial and how many go to sportsman and it never matters what the numbers are, neither are happy and we are the bad guys.

Well, I have considerable skepticism about the way salmon are listed and protected. Hatcheries are pumping out more fish than ever from all these rivers, and (1) I don't think there is a real distinction that should matter between wild and hatchery fish - are they not the SAME fish from the same river?

And (2) the fishery for the whole region can be shut down or crippled to protect one protected run in one threatened creek somewhere in the region. That's a questionable strategy, IMHO. I think we may need a much more realistic strategy that says no one river is guaranteed by NATURE to always have fish in it. Nature has ways of changing and destroying runs, and they either can stand on their own and survive, or they can't. Period. If they can't, there is nothing we can do to make them survive. We are part of nature too. We do what we can to protect them, but the strategy needs to be an overall one, not a micromanaging one.

[WashingtonBay]

It is a matter of time before some gets killed by bear or cougar and people will be demanding a recall in the cougar/bear bait/dog ban. The fact is not enough are harvested without them. It is NOT a cruel method of hunting. It is a technique no different than the difference between deer/elk/geese/grouse.

We just hold our breath every spring. Last fall we dealt with a foal that had been carried off from her mom right in front of a house. Cougars wander through school yards. We are on top of them the minute these things happen but we are on borrowed time.

Agreed... more likely it will be a cougar that will get someone in suburbia... scarier than bears, and even harder to hunt without some advantage - hounds.

[cheval]

Hatcheries are not pumping out more fish. It's been way less. And we have had to close hatcheries down and there are more on the chopping block. The wild are different from the hatchery genetically and there's been plenty of research to show that hatchery stock is inferior to the wild stock. Which is why we have reintroduction programs in our upper watersheds for coho to try and bring these populations back.

The numbers are dwindling with some of the stocks that it does become necessary to shut down the river for their run. Even so, they still offer season - albeit short to the sports and commercial guys. When there are no wild fish left in that stock, that's it. The hatchery stock cannot and will not replace that stock nor should it.

It's a fine balance between protecting the resource and trying to offer the fishing opportunity on them and that's where people have the most issue. They dont' understand the process. It doesn't matter how many public meetings we offer. They come in with a predetermined idea of what they think is the right way and no other explanation will do. What they want to hear is "You can fish all summer for sturgeon salmon steelehad". They don't seem to care what the cost of that really would be.

[WashingtonBay]

Hatcheries are not pumping out more fish. It's been way less. And we have had to close hatcheries down and there are more on the chopping block.

Why, if salmon stocks are dwindling, are hatcheries being closed?

The wild are different from the hatchery genetically and there's been plenty of research to show that hatchery stock is inferior to the wild stock. Which is why we have reintroduction programs in our upper watersheds for coho to try and bring these populations back.Why are they different? Why aren't they using the wild stock in the hatchery, taking some number to be decided by the fishery, and releasing the rest to continue upstream? I don't get it.

[cheval]

Money. We have no money to keep these hatcheries going. It's a combo of trout and salmon - mostly trout from what was given to the Gov. There's just no money.

Wild fish can survive outmigration and returns better than hatchery fish. Hatchery fish are fed by hand, have the protection of the raceways. I woudn't call them more stupid than a wild fish but they don't have to go through the same things a wild fish has to in order to survive. I believe there are less than 1% of hatchery fish that make it back to spawn - in large part again, because they have it easier than the wild fish that are spawned out in the thick of it.

We have a huge hatchery reform ocurring right now trying to figure all of this out.

[WashingtonBay]

Well good luck in improving the hatchery fish... it seems like we could figure out how to ensure they pass some competency testing before they're allowed to breed :p

It just occurs to me that there's no real need for them to be separate and different than the wild fish. They're treated like an outsider that doesn't count, and they definitely should count in the total numbers. Their percentages should be able to be roughly the percentage of wild fish that return.


As for money... you need better lobbyists. There's plenty of money around, it's just being given to other agencies... usually the wrong ones. :)

[cheval]

I don't know how they get down and do the return forecast and I don't want to know. They are in the next aisle over and they swear more than I do at work. :eek:

Money - yeah. It's always about money. But at least it's statewide and not just us. Every state agency has had to cut huge amounts. I'm just glad I don't work for CA fish and game. Talk about budget cuts.

[WashingtonBay]

Sorry for my focus on salt water fishery.... We've always been a salmon fishing family, not so much into lake fishing. :)

[cheval]

Not at all! It's all about fish anyway!

[mare]

As for money... you need better lobbyists. There's plenty of money around, it's just being given to other agencies... usually the wrong ones. :)

I know! Take over a bank! lol Couldn't help it. Sorry.

We have had fisheries closed here in WY, too. I understand there are fewer dollars that are having to work harder. I hope you get more support for your (collective) work than in recent years. I think there is little understanding by many how inter-related we are to what is happening in wilderness areas.