Lunging advice..

[peace_baby]

Ok, I've already seen the how to lunge thread.
I've been doing some ground work with my 2yo QH, Hank, and all he wants to do is follow.
I cannot figure out how to get him to stand still so I can get into position to get him to lunge (if that makes sense?). He keeps his head right on me and I'm constantly trying to push his head off of me and trying to kind of get behind him so that I can get him moving, because I can't put him in position on the outside of the circle and have him stay there.

I got really frustrated with him today and just gave up because I was exhausted (I gotta start workin out..).

Thank you for any advice in advance!

[vicklynn]

Use your lunge whip to push him off. You do this by tapping that shoulder, he will get the idea and move off.
Be patient if he just walks circles around you at first, you want him close until he figures it out, then you give more lead. I taught Myst with a rope halter and 13 ft lead. She was afraid of the whip,(thinking there must of been a reason, previous owner)but learned that it is used as a tool, not a beating object. I kept pushing her around me, and eventually she got it. Backing up was one of the major problems I had to deal with. Just remember, patients is the key. If you get him to round you once, stop, let it be, give them a pat and a rub, good boy. Then try again for 2 rounds. Call it good for the day. You can not get it down pat in one day.
Good luck.

[peace_baby]

Thanks, Vicklynn. :)
I'll give it another go tomorrow, I'll be spending all day with him.

[Kaitlyn]

Ha, I'm in the same boat, as you know form my thread. But mine has had previous training before, which is the stem of his problems. I use a lead and a crop, rather than a lunge whip because he tends to lose it when I use the whip, ok, fine. Used the crop. I push his head out and keep the crop at his flank and he gets it. It's like 'ok, ok, I'll get out of your space' and he walks out.

My problem with him is he stops after a little bit and looks at me like HUH? You want me to do what. Frustrating. TRY to remain calm and patient, stop on a good note. It's bad to end on a bad note.

Good luck, stay patient, don't push yourselves too hard. :)

[WashingtonBay]

Sometimes you just have to give them a push to the neck and get really animated with them too. It's no time to be shy and reserved. Run at them with ears pinned! Make sure you give them slack in the line to move, and do what you'd do if they were crowding you and you wanted to scare him off! Be loud! Swing your arms! Crack that whip! Use it if you have to... "Move out! Go on! Move it!"

[peace_baby]

Yeah, Hank hasn't really had any previous training.
They worked with him for a little bit and then the PO broke her ankle.
I'll try all of the suggestions because what I'm doing is obviously not working lol.
He kind of stays on me tho like trying to put his head over my shoulder, almost makes me feel like he'd rather run me over than run in a simple circle. :rolleyes: Lol.

Thanks for the advice you guys. :)

[Palogal]

Those are respect issues. Teach him to yield the forehand. and stay out of your space until you invite him in.

[John Boy]

A couple of subtle hints , and I am sure others will comment as well.

VL and WB all good stuff for you.
Just remember keep your lunge whip at a 45 degree angle from ground and point it at the horses inside shoulder. Your shoulder then will be at an angle to appear from the horses perspective to be at a 45 degree angle to his back & side to drive him.
DO NOT ever forget lunging is dangerous so angles are important.
A horse can kick at a 45 degree angle from his side , or rear and then side kick. This is why we have whips to protect ourselfs and to also insure the horse understands we are the boss.
You should acclimate the horse to the whip , so he knows it's not to hurt him .
When lunging always have your lunge line coiled in nice loops so you never tangle your self , and should be not taught from hand to horse halter.
if you have problems from the get .. start walk then halt. walk and halt , then graduate from his side , to small circles as VL stated. You don't want a trot out of the horse until you are more than a horse body length away from you , because if he is moving forward this activity can also increase a side kick.
I lunge often , and during the winter it's my primary activity because of snow conditions for riding.
Two other simple aid's you can use and that is cones or flags , forcing the horse to go outside of the cones or flags, because horses get lazy and try to bale out , by going towards you. This is not only a no-no , its also a great opportunity for a kick.
depending on gender as well as type of horse , this may/will happen and the Whip will protect you as well as keeping the horse in good manners.
If the horse is some what lazy semi- walk (put pressure) on the horse to continue trotting or cantering. If the horse is flipping you off , kick some dirt at it , or even throw a chunk of sod , his way . Not to hit , but get him to move out. Once in due time they know your the hub of the wheel , its a pleasant activity and many learning skills can be learned by the horse.
One final point I need to make that is the upmost important of lunging . Never have the horse walk to you while on the lunge line. Once they cool down from trot , canter etc , in a walk , have them whoa then walk , the whoa , until they fully understand it's when you say stop they stop on the circle.
Then walk to your horse. If the horse faces you or comes to you , he could rear or turn and kick.
(Also if for some odd reason you have a wild one , and it's happened to me and you can not control the horse , just let the lunge line go. I am assuming you are doing this in an arena or fenced area. once the horse is calm go to him , and retrieve your lunge line) - you don't want to be dragged and injure your self.

sorry for running off , but i hope this helps.

[peace_baby]

Palogal - I'll definitely get on that first thing tomorrow.

JB - I like the cone/flag idea. Where could I go to get some cheap cones?

Again, thank you for the advice everyone!
It's very much appreciated.

[John Boy]

some vid's if you haven't seen them -

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/56364_horse-lunge-line-hold-whip.htm

http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-lunge-a-schooled-horse

http://www.horse-training-videos.com/longeing.htm

Lunging my horse... Video by Boss Mare - MySpace Video (see how this horse is cutting in , could kick lunger)

http://www.horsehero.com/5201/5214/6283 (her lunger walking to work / assist and keep enough pressure for forward)

YouTube - lunging a horse some more errors - big loops / two hand use of lunge line / lunger position

[YAorNEIGH]

I really don't like that lady from ExpertVillage. I've seen a few of her videos and none of them have impressed me...

peace_baby, if you watch that video, keep a few things in mind.

1) It is not necessary to keep your lunge whip held like that behind your horse. All that does is keep "pressure" on your horse, which will mean that you'll need more and more pressure in order to get them to move off or stay moving. I like to keep my whip behind me or to the side and if I need to bring it around...that's *all* I need to do. My horses see me bring it around and that's all it takes to remind them to keep moving as I asked them to until I cue them to change gaits or stop. No need to crack or wave your whip if you can get a response with a lighter cue, right?

2) Also, something that really bothers me about that video is that the horse trots off immediately and the woman says..."Walk, Colby." But does *NOTHING* to reinforce that verbal cue and lets the horse keep trotting. Do not do this. First of all, if you ask for a gait, you should expect a response. If you ask for it and don't reinforce the cue, the horse is going to think that they don't *have* to walk when you say walk (or trot or canter or woah). Be consistent! Plus...I always want my horses to walk off calmly at first so that they don't explode with energy as soon as I send them out...that can be dangerous for you if they're still within kicking range when they burst into a gleeful bucking fit :)

Edited to add a couple more comments/tips...

Never, never, NEVER wear your spurs when you're lunging. If you need to get out of the horse's way fast, you're not going to want to trip over your own spurs. I've seen it happen. Not pretty. :(

Always keep your lines organized but never wrap it around your hand or let the end drag the ground. You don't want to get tangled in it and get drug. I've seen that as well. Tend to see a lot of mistakes when you're surrounded by fellow students :D

Just as with teaching your horse to stay in the gait you ask for, do not let him switch directions on you unless you ask for it. If he does, push him back into the correct direction and keep him there until you ask him to stop and turn in towards you to switch directions.

Hope that helps. :)

[John Boy]

As stated above not all vid's are perfect , and the point to the vid's Isupplied are to see do's and don'ts.

If someone can find a novice horse & showing from the get - how to lunge I think it would be quite valuable for this thread.

(It's not as easy as some of these vid's prove)

[Palogal]

I would start your horse with turns on the haunches, you will probably need to be rather "convincing" at first but eventually you should be able to point your whip at the shoulder and the forehand should move away from the whip. Once you establish that degree of control and you lunge, if he starts to turn point at the shoulder and he should straighten up it he does come all the way in, turn him out again harshly since you cued him to move and he did the opposite of what you asked.

[YAorNEIGH]

Sorry, John Boy! I meant no offense! Just adding to the information provided :) Thanks for the links.

[42many]

(Also if for some odd reason you have a wild one , and it's happened to me and you can not control the horse , just let the lunge line go. I am assuming you are doing this in an arena or fenced area. once the horse is calm go to him , and retrieve your lunge line) - you don't want to be dragged and injure your self.

sorry for running off , but i hope this helps.

:) :D For real!! Just LET GO!!! :hysterical: When I was a teenager working at a barn, I was told to take this stud horse out to the back pen and lunge him. I knew enough to lunge the normal school horses, but was TOTALLY not ready for him! I was trying to hold him in and stay up, and I did... for about 45 seconds. Then he hit the end of that lunge line like a ton of bricks and WOMP I hit the ground. He ended up dragging my butt face-down for about 25 feet until I finally remembered to LET GO! :D Funny the goofy things you can forget in the heat of the moment - we were even in a fairly enclosed place; it wasn't like he was going to run off somewhere...

[Harleys Owner]

I've scanned the thread to here, and one thing I haven't seen emphasized is that when the horse does respond in the proper fashion, to what ever type of pressure you are putting on the horse to get him to go, you need to immediately stop the pressure, and restart it immediately when he stops giving the proper response. Even if it's only been a few steps. You have to really be alert to watch for the proper response, and let off the pressure, but restart as soon as he stops. Make sense??

[vicklynn]

I've scanned the thread to here, and one thing I haven't seen emphasized is that when the horse does respond in the proper fashion, to what ever type of pressure you are putting on the horse to get him to go, you need to immediately stop the pressure, and restart it immediately when he stops giving the proper response. Even if it's only been a few steps. You have to really be alert to watch for the proper response, and let off the pressure, but restart as soon as he stops. Make sense??
Good catch Harley. I guess Im so used to people knowing to let off pressure, I just plum forget.
If you are pushing a car down a hill, and it starts rolling, do you keep pushing???No
If your horse is doing what you ask, let it continue without you asking.

[WashingtonBay]

Said yet another way ;)... There needs to be a distinctly different response to the right answer than there was to the wrong answer. Something the horse will learn to look for. - "Ah - that's what she wants!"

Part of the confusion that comes with teaching a horse to lunge happens when it seems to them, no matter what they do, they still have you standing there with the line and the whip making confusing demands. Our job is to try to start explaining those apparently confusing demands in a way that the right thing is easy and the wrong thing is harder. The response, or release for the right answer needs to be instant and clearly understood as praise.

[natisha]

Another thing that may work especially of you have a real sensitive or dramatic horse is to have another person on the outside of the circle holding the horse with a long rope, like human cross ties. That person just walks along reminding the horse to not walk in towards the pivot person, they do not tell the horse to do anything.

The lunging person gives all the cues, the outside person is the back up only. Do this only at the walk for obvious reasons. Be sure the helper stays far away & in front of the horse for safety reasons. A long rope not attached to the horse but run through the side of the halter with both ends held by the helper is usually safer.

The helper eventually does less & less until they can remove their rope & walk along getting farther from the horse. I've used this on some die hard nonlungers & it's worked every time. Use care to keep things quiet & calm.

This is only to help the horse understand the concept of the circle & pay attention the the handler. It's not for the fine tuning lunging stuff. Hope this helps.

[Palogal]

You could also long-line him. That way you have a rein to turn him out if he turns in. It also reinforces your bit cues.

[John Boy]

All very good comments and suggestions.

As today I was to busy to ride , but I lunged I started thinking of other ways a novice horse can be taught using some simple aid's the horse naturally cue's on to help the newbie lunger.

If you have an arena or outside sandy area (and this works in the snow as well , you ride your horse in a perfect 10 or 15 meter circle. wearing done a path , as in a fresh dragged arena , your horse after a couple of circles will take to the track . ;)

Now use this same track and lunge the horse. Start by walking along side of that track -cue for halt , then walk , and slowly walk farther away from the withers till the horse continues on track and you are in the center of the circle. you get the idea...
While the horse continues on the track congradulate him.
-------
the reason I came up with this , during the summer I do not always drag the arena , and when I lead my horse out of the barn with lunge line he already knows what he will be doing.
Once I get to one of those 'old' track circles , I basically command him to walk , and he follows the track as if he never left it.

*AS stated before if someone tracks down a video of teaching a horse to stay on track while lunger slowly works father away from the withers I think this could help several people. Ironically all the vid's I've watch were not the absolute best for a green horse / green lunger to boot spit polished.

[Palogal]

Well, how's it going?

[peace_baby]

Wow lol.
I wasn't really expecting so much helpful advice. :)
We worked on the respect issues today.
I was using some of the suggestions about getting him to respect my space and I think it got through to him a little bit.
He doesn't do the whole pushy, all-over-me thing as much as he has been.

I'm going to keep at it and I'll keep everyone updated.
Thank you all!!

[Palogal]

LOL, we're pretty nosy!

[peace_baby]

Lol, I can be too (although I prefer to call it curious ;)).

[Pony Peep]

Well, a Haflinger that I worked with previously, [was going to buy but the dang owner didn't tell us he had freaking EPM. Fabulous, right?] Anyways....He would always turn in to look at me, and I took the lunging whip and tapped it in front of me to make him go forward. I don't know if that will work for you. Good luck! :)

[IrisGreen]

I made a video of Muffin lunging a while ago. I just edited it and added some commentary. I hope it helps. This was after I already had him lunging pretty well.

He would do the same thing your horse does. Want to stand right by me. So, I taught him to stand while I walked away. Or while lunging swing the free end of the rope towards his head to get him to move out. Not hit him with it but just remind him to stay out.

Once the video is done uploading I will post it. He is much better now then he was then but it took practice and most of all ME getting the right positions! lol

[IrisGreen]

Here you go. I don't know if this will help. It's how I teach to lunge or I should say what I want when I am lunging. It takes practice and starting at a walk. Always start at a walk not a trot. So, the horse stays calm instead of taking off the minuet you hook a line to them.

YouTube - Fine Tuning Lunging Commands

[peace_baby]

Thank you for that, Iris. :)
I'll be going back out tomorrow to work with him some more, so I'll be working on the respect issues and some cues (and my position lol).

Updates later!

[peace_baby]

Ok. Update! :)
Today I find myself having a much harder time getting frustrated with him.
Then again, he was also being a lot more cooperative than he would have been before. ;)
He's learning his cues and I'm learning my position.
The only things that I'm having a problem with is getting him to turn towards me instead of away from me and getting him to stop without trying to come towards me.
Other than that, I think we're getting it. :)

[WashingtonBay]

Ok. Update! :)
Today I find myself having a much harder time getting frustrated with him.
Then again, he was also being a lot more cooperative than he would have been before. ;)
He's learning his cues and I'm learning my position.
The only things that I'm having a problem with is getting him to turn towards me instead of away from me and getting him to stop without trying to come towards me.
Other than that, I think we're getting it. :)

If he's on a line, I don't know how he could turn away from you.

And with my beginning lungers, I don't mind if they stop and turn in. And I don't do 'reverse' until much later. Stopping is a good time to praise, and praise for stopping, then start them in the new direction.

Later on, with long lines, you can teach them to stop straight on the circle in a day.

[peace_baby]

If he's on a line, I don't know how he could turn away from you.

And with my beginning lungers, I don't mind if they stop and turn in. And I don't do 'reverse' until much later. Stopping is a good time to praise, and praise for stopping, then start them in the new direction.

Later on, with long lines, you can teach them to stop straight on the circle in a day.

I don't really keep him on a tight line and I guess sometimes he just decides to turn around on his own and the line ends up over his neck or back.
I end up having to tell him "whoa" (which he's pretty much getting lol) so that I can untangle him and turn him around again.

I have tried on a tighter line and he just ended up dragging me a little when I was getting him to stop so I could turn him around.

I also don't do 'reverse', I'm just trying to get him to stop and turn around lol.
I try to be very technical with him. Pretty much drawing everything out that I'm asking for. I guess it's just a matter of time before it really clicks.

Also, how do you teach them to stop straight on the circle?

[YAorNEIGH]

Well, peace_baby :) Luckily, there's a fairly easy solution there. Keep the line a little bit more taught and keep your lunge whip on hand. Learn to read him. When you see him slow and prepare to stop and turn around, bring that whip up behind him and drive him forward! If he's going forward well, he can't turn in towards the roundpen panel ;)

I know this sounds like a bit much, but if he's dragging on you, you need to teach him to respond to that pressure. If he tugs on you, apply pressure on the line. Don't let him lean on it. Keep pressure on until he responds and stops pulling against you. When he responds correctly, release the pressure. Just like when you're riding :)

When you DO want him to turn, you want him to turn in and towards you. To do this you're going to get him to halt, switch your lunge whip to the other hand (behind your back, preferably), and get his eyes on you. Get him to turn towards you, get his attention. Snap your fingers, whatever you need to do. Then you're gonna bring up the lunge whip in front of him and pull him with the line a little in the direction you want him to turn.

I hope that helps some. :)

[WashingtonBay]

Well, it sounds like you need to be a lot more alert on the line. You should be able to feel him at the end, but not pulling, on the line, just like reins. Don't give him so much that he can get tangled.




Also, how do you teach them to stop straight on the circle?

Like I said above... I don't worry about them coming to me when they are just learning the basics. If they come to me when I say woah I just don't see it as a problem. Heck. I may never worry about it with a lot of horses. It just depends what I'm lunging FOR, how much precision I ask for. To argue with them about it in the beginning only manages to cause a lot of conflict and confusion right at the moment I'd like to praise them.

If I do teach it, I do it with long lines, which are essentially reins. That way I have both an outside and inside rein to help hold them straight. Like this:

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=106&pictureid=684

[IrisGreen]

With Muffin, at first I would ask for a stop and if he started walking in to me I would tell him again "Ho" and walk towards him, back him up to where He should have stayed then pet him. Tell him "stand" walk away a little then come back BEFORE he went to fallow me and pet him again for staying there. Slowly work your way up so they know what "stand" means or you can use the word "woa" for stop and stand. I use "Ho" as a stop and stand but if Muffin moves then he gets the "stand" command and he knows I mean business and I'm not playing around. lol

I started out just working on walk, stop, and stand. Once you have that down then you can work more on turns like YorN talked about in post 33. That is how I taught Muffin to turn by switching the whip to the other hand, pointing with my free hand holding the line and if he didn't turn I would hold the whip up to make him think twice about continuing on his path. Hold the whip down on the ground and only hold it out when you think you might need it. Your main cue hand should be your other arm pointing. You want the horse focused on your cue not on what the whip is doing so keep it down unless he is ignoring your cues. Make sure your infront of the shoulder when you ask for a turn, at first you can get way out in front of them when there stopped and get them to turn. Eventually all you will need is just to step in front of the shoulder and they will turn with out you having to physically be infront of them.

[peace_baby]

Well, it sounds like you need to be a lot more alert on the line. You should be able to feel him at the end, but not pulling, on the line, just like reins. Don't give him so much that he can get tangled.

Well, I can tell when he's going to do it.
Today I didn't give him much chance to do it because every time he stopped and I saw he was going to turn, I got behind him and started tapping the ground behind him with the lunge whip. That seemed to help some, but he still does it.

And right now, you're right, I am only trying to get the basics down.
I was just curious as to how you would teach them to stop on the circle. :]

[peace_baby]

Make sure your infront of the shoulder when you ask for a turn, at first you can get way out in front of them when there stopped and get them to turn. Eventually all you will need is just to step in front of the shoulder and they will turn with out you having to physically be infront of them.

Lol, I figured out my positioning there.
I actually did get him to turn (he was stopped) but I stepped in front of him like you said and it worked. :)

This is just going to take a lot of us working together and learning from each other.
I really enjoy being out there with him and working with him even though he'll give me a little bit of a hard time, but I think he does pretty well considering he hasn't had much work before.

Thank you all for your help! :D

[Palogal]

Ok. Update! :)
Today I find myself having a much harder time getting frustrated with him.
Then again, he was also being a lot more cooperative than he would have been before. ;)
He's learning his cues and I'm learning my position.
The only things that I'm having a problem with is getting him to turn towards me instead of away from me and getting him to stop without trying to come towards me.
Other than that, I think we're getting it. :)


Instead of reversing him I would stop him, yield the forehand in the direction you want him to go, and give the forward cue.
As for him coming to you, I don't see that as a problem. Depending on your posture you may be calling him to you. When he does, use your whip and direct him back out to the edge of the circle by backing and turning him in the direction you want him to go. No need to get nasty about it unless he refuses to move, just put him back and start again. He'll learn to wait for your cue to come in (if you've taught him one).