Emotions and RP theories

[Apaches Mom]

Okay, watched a couple episodes of Ryan Gingerich and was impressed. So I went to his website. But reading some of his articles has really made me think. Here's his links to the articles if you want to read the whole article.
http://www.ryangingerich.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=9&Itemid=62

Emotions: During his tv show, he made a comment that horses can't be disrepectful because they'd have to be able to respect and since they can't, then they can't disrespect.

One article:
In one specific chapter Dr. Grandin makes a very interesting case for animals having emotions. She described emotions as simple and complex. Simple emotions are fear, rage, discovery, confusion, gain, loss, happiness and depression. Complex emotions are shame, guilt, embarrassment, greed, respect, contempt...... After months of reading and study and observing my horses I now believe that horses do feel the simple emotions of fear, anger, confusion and possibly happiness. I can say for sure that a horse doesn’t feel these emotions like you and I.

So what do you think? Can horses feel the complex emotions? In my experience, they do. I do believe horses respect and disrepect. In a herd, I think all the other horses "respect" the Alpha mare. I think Vance has shown shame/guilt before too. When he's something that he KNOWS he's not suppose to have and I catch him, I SWEAR he hangs his head in shame and gives me that "ahhh mom" look. :p


Then I was surprised when he has two different articles where he talks about Round penning and natural horsemanship.

Many trainers teach that current round penning technique controls the horse’s feet. They rationalize this by saying that because the horse moves its feet in the desired path that the trainer has chosen the horse is now under control. I strongly disagree. My question to them then is if the round pen wasn’t there would the horse still respond the same way. The answer is always no. The round pen gives the handler a false sense of security. It keeps the horse in a confined area. Through negative reinforcement horses learn that they can stop running (which is a hyper-reactive response) if they follow the handlers movements. .

I want you to look at this from a behavioral point of view. Since every action that is repeated is learned, what are we teaching the horse? If the horse spends five minutes running away from us and five seconds responding to us, which of these activities has the horse practiced more? To run-away, right! Current round pen techniques teach the horse to associate us with the flight response. Flight is the horse’s first choice for escaping potential or real danger. The flight response is a basic innate response from the horse to danger. Is this the response we want from our horses? Of course not!


In another article
I strongly believe that round-penning a horse (the act of chasing a horse in a round pen) is possibly the most harmful thing you can do because horses are prey animals and the round pen lesson teaches fear. Dr. Grandin makes this point also when she says that she believes "that instilling fear in an animal is far worse than pain.” Horses are prey animals, they are the embodiment of the fear response, and since fear is quickly remembered and never forgotten it doesn’t make sense to assist in the installation of the fear response. The same holds true for desensitizing. I realize that this is a very popular term and function in the training of horses. However, when done improperly it can have far reaching adverse affects on the horses psyche.
I often wonder if natural horsemanship is such a great thing. since there is still such an over-abundance of horses with behavioral problems.

Wow, talk about a completely different way of thinking!:eek: So what are your thoughts?

I don't want this to be about Ryan. I'd just like to see what everyone else thinks about his theories. I really enjoyed his show and now have it set to automatically dvr anytime it's on. I like his way of training the four movements; forward, backward, left and right. And just his calm nature. Another episode he was dealing with a barrel horse that was "spoiled" on the barrels. I liked how he handled it (immediatly took the tie down off and changed from twisted wire snaffle to full cheek snaffle) and told the girl she needed to change HER way of thinking. Do something besides run the barrel pattern. He told her to take the rest of the year off and just ride trails. I really enjoyed the show and agreed with what he said/did. So once again, another trainer than I'll take somethings from and disregard other things.

I was just shocked I guess when I read his articles. Its just so different than the "normal" today.

So do horses have complex emotions? Is RP instilling fear instead of respect?

[Me'N'Chic]

Interesting thoughts about the round pen---Hmmm. I can see what he may be thinking--but also maybe the horse isn't actually "afraid" of us in the round pen--it's just that they learn when I lift stick up and point to hip that means go. I don''t chase mine in there. They are not to walk off until I say walk on or cluck and point the stick to their hip--but until i do that I may be beside them praising or rubbing--not chasing and instilling fear. I'm only giving them the amount of pressure i need to to get them to go.

[Palogal]

I think this guy is areal extremest. If you round pen directly there's no chasing involved. You direct the horse and he moves around you. It's also not used to control the feet necessarily. I use a round pen to balance a gait, to teach movements etc, it's my "classroom" for the horses. I like it because it's a small space.

To the casual observer I guess it's "chasing" the horse but not if you really watch someone who knows how to do it.

So I guess he may be a great horse person but he's too quick to judge and condemn practices he does not truly understand.

[IrisGreen]

I think ANY technique or training method in the wrong hands or practiced by someone that does not get the point of doing it is harmful to a horse. Whether it be there training, there emotions, trusting ability or willingness to learn and work with a human.

Round penning is to gain respect, practice cues and connect with your horse (when done properly). Not Chase it around. If He or the Dr. Girl thinks thats what round penning is about (just chasing a horse) they need to stop writing about horse psychology and go back to basic ground training methods Because they have no clue what there talking about!

I don't chase my horse, I tell him what direction, speed, gait, stop, turn and stand he should be doing. I do it in a calm and clear way that he understands and is not afraid of me. We ask for these things under saddle too so why not on the ground?

The only time you should chase a horse in a round pen is in the very beginning stages of training them to round pen. To get them to move and focus on you. After that it's about teaching them cues and commands not chasing them around to make them afraid of you. Who ever thinks round penning is used to make a horse fear the handler needs to not write articles about horses and learn the proper way and goal of round penning!

As for the emotions a horse can have. We all know they have more then just the basic emotions, they sulk after getting in trouble, they respect and respond to one handlers cues better then another, they get upset and jealous when you pet another horse, and they enjoy being fussed over by there owners. Obviously that lady doesn't have a good relationship with her horses if she thinks they only have basic emotions or she would know there's more to them when you truly have a bond.

[Palogal]

You NEVER chase a horse in a round pen or anywhere else, EVER. If you cannot stop them, use a lunge line. Why would you chase something that can kick your head off?

[IrisGreen]

You NEVER chase a horse in a round pen or anywhere else, EVER. If you cannot stop them, use a lunge line. Why would you chase something that can kick your head off?

I mean "chase" as in with a whip, swinging your arms stuff like that not running behind them trying to get kicked.

Why would you think I meant actually running behind a horse? lol I don't have a death wish! lol You can "chase" a horse with a whip while standing in the middle of the round pen to get them to move at first. So, they get the idea to lunge and not come in to you. I'm not saying you continue to "chase" but when first training to lunge you need to get them moving forward.

I can't believe you think I would physically chase a horse! :hysterical:

[Vacker Hast]

Palo,

You should know by now that Iris doesn't chase any horse ... she makes me run behind the horse and hopes for a good kick so she can get her inheritance :nono:

[IrisGreen]

That reminds me......

Hey, Mom... Can you come over tomorrow? I have something planned for you.........:whistle:

[Vacker Hast]

Erin,

They are not going to drop your new tack room on me while chanting "The Wicked Witch Is Dead"!!!

[Palogal]

I mean "chase" as in with a whip, swinging your arms stuff like that




Who does that?

[Vacker Hast]

I will chase/push with my body position and tools to move the horse forward. I put pressure at the shoulder but may have to drop back just a bit to get the forward motion going. This is a common tech. for starting and continuing lunging. I'm talking about from the center of the area you are working not from behind the horse.

Stacy

[Palogal]

That's not chasing. That's cueing and using a pressure/release method which I use myself. Chasing a prey animal is ridiculous.

[IrisGreen]

Originally Posted by IrisGreen
I mean "chase" as in with a whip, swinging your arms stuff like that

Originally Posted by Palogal
Who does that?

Is that really a question or are you trying to be catty?

[Vacker Hast]

Chasing a prey animal is ridiculous.

This sooooooo reminds me of MaryAnn running and trying to catch McKenzie (a full grown Perch) I'm still laughing about that. I truly could not believe what I was seeing haaaaaaa!!!

See Erin,

There are people out there that are stupid enough to do exactly what Palo said because we saw it with our own eyes. Erin and I looked at each other and decided she was crazier than us and that's hard to come by lol. This really happened and it was not only dangerous but hellarious ... the horse won of coarse.

Stacy

[Palogal]

Geeze...
I assume she wasn't hurt? Although, it does take some cahunas to chase a perch gotta give her that.

[Vacker Hast]

I'm still laughing so hard on this one. She was fine after she ran all over the property trying to catch McKenzie, after she got loose from lunging, the gal was all of 5'1 and had to catch her breath as McKenzie went and hid with the the other big girls (Perch's).

I have never seen anything so stupid in all my life!!! That memory is a keeper :hysterical:

[Palogal]

I'm still laughing so hard on this one. She was fine after she ran all over the property trying to catch McKenzie, after she got loose from lunging, the gal was all of 5'1 and had to catch her breath as McKenzie went and hid with the the other big girls (Perch's).

I have never seen anything so stupid in all my life!!! That memory is a keeper :hysterical:


She didn't really think she could chase her down...or did she? I never cease to be amazed at the insane things people do with horses.

[Vacker Hast]

Yeeesssssssssssss she thought she could run that big horse down and catch her it was hallerious. The horse ran all around the property running from her until the lady lost her breath and couldn't run anymore and McKenzie ran over to the other mares and acted like she was hiding lol. Eventually, the lady caught her breath and walked over to the herd and got McKenzie. You should have seen the looks on our faces I'm sure it was priceless lol!!! Erin and I didn't even offer to help lol. We knew better than to try and run down a Perch.

I'm 5'7 and this is me mounting McKenzie to show you her size and she was a 4 yo at the time and full of spunk.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=595&pictureid=7138&thumb=1 ('http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/album.php?albumid=595&pictureid=7138')

I'm crazy but not stupid enough to think I could out run this girl to catch her lol!!!

[Palogal]

Where's a good eye roll smiley when you need one...:rolleyes: there it is!

[Apaches Mom]

I have seen some "trainers" actually chase the horse in the RP. Pony Boy being one of them. I think I've seen Dennis Reis do it to (but I could be wrong on that one). They are actually behind the horse, pushing them forward, swinging a rope. Of course, they aren't close enough to be kicked but it's still chasing. Cause I remember thinking "I'm too old to be doing that much running!" When I RP, I stand in the middle and just going in circles. But if you want to get techincal, how is that not chasing the horse? It's only because you are in the RP and it's going in a circle. I mean, some people say you can RP in a field, you just have to keep the horse moving. Are you not chasing them in a sense?

And Ryan admits that when he started out, he did RP. He knows a lot about it. But has since, changed his mind about it.

I'm not buying into his theories. I've seen the RP work. And I definitely believe my horse has the emotions of shame/guilt and respect/disrespect. It just made me think about what I believe and why...

[IrisGreen]

I'm sorry. I didn't read all the articles but isn't Ryan the Arabian trainer? I saw him RP a horse just the other day on TV to get it used to driving lines and he WAS chasing that horse to get it to move or stop.

You need motivation to get the horse to move or stop at first, once it's trained then cues and reinforcement are all that's needed. But, at first you are chasing, be it with your body, whip, or shaking a rope. It's all the same to the horse and you ARE chasing him that's why hes running away from you.

The goal is to get that fear response out of them so they move off from the cue not the fear response. There is a big difference between a trained horse and a horse that's running out of fear. I see way to many horses and people round pen in chase mode and never transition to teaching mode. These are the horsees that pull on the line, try to dart out a gate and jerk there handlers around trying to escape being chased.

That's why the Lady my Mom was talking about lost her horse. She was in chase mode in the RP and the horse was not thinking clearly or taking cues. It was just running to get away from her and bolted to the back field with her running after it yelling and mad that her horse imbarrased her. This was a horse she had RP many times before but she didn't know what she was doing so she never actually trained the horse, just chased. It was the Lady's fault for not being a good trainer and teaching this horse to calm down and just take cues not run for your life.

If you have ever seen a video of me lunging Muffin there is no fear in him. Actually, I have him too desensitized to the point of swinging a rope and hitting him in the butt doesn't faze him and he won't pick up the trot sometimes. He knows this is a training session not a chasing session and he will get in trouble when he doesn't respond to my cues. He's lazy and knows I'm not going to eat him so he desided to ignore my cue, then I have to reinforce it with the whip or rope and he is back on track.

The other day I put a 14 foot lead on him and he wanted to RP. He walked circles around me and was happy to do it. He knows he is good at it and he gets praise for being a good boy so he wanted to show off and lunge. I let him as long as he was listening, he can have fun and we can practice. He enjoyed it and was perfect with his cues (I was shocked because it had been a while since we lunged), even got a little pep in his step, he was happy to show off that he could lunge on a short line with control. There was no chasing, if anything he was the only thing moving and he chose to move around me.

[WashingtonBay]

I admit from the start that because I don't have RFDTV, I haven't seen this guy or heard of him before, and I didn't go to the link. I haven't seen many of the trainers you guys all know, many of whom, I guess, round pen loose a lot.

But I will say that I agree with him that loose round penning is of very limited usefulness, IMHO, for a lot of reasons. I do value lunging, but I've never had a round pen myself. I value lunging for teaching manners and obedience to precise commands, more than just running around.

Someone described this guy as an "Arab trainer".... if that's true I can see too, why he'd find loose round penning to be somewhat counter productive. They are wired a little differently, that's what I've always had.

I think horses clearly do have the basic emotions he describes... and I'm not sure why he thinks respect is a complex one. If you're defining respect as pecking order, it's one of the horse's most basic forms of government.

[Palogal]

That's true, the Arabs do have some different softward running upstairs sometimes. I would never own one, you could not give me one and I don't like training them but I can see why round penning would be a lost cause with some arabians. I lunge Arabs a lot but it's always on a lunge line and over obstacles and stuff. They just don't get the round pen at least that I've worked with but I also have only worked with probably 4.

[Apaches Mom]

I don't think he's an "arabian trainer". So it must have been someone else (I wonder if that wasn't Dennis Reis.. I saw an episode similar to what you mentioned... I can't STAND his laugh!!! LOL). Ryan's nickname is "The Behavorist". It never mentions anything on his website "about me" page about arabians.

This language, used exclusivly by Ryan and his students, requires that the horse need give only one response to one cue. When used correctly, Ryan's methods lead to a “deletion” of the incorrect behavior. This eliminates confusion in the horse and owner helping both to relax and learn. Ryan uses this technique to rehabilitate horses with behaviors that range from bolting and bucking to buddy sour. His method crosses all disciplines and is used at his National Equine Behavior Center in Troy, Missouri to rehabilitate every breed of horse from off track Thoroughbreds to Quarter horses.

I didn't take the articles to mean lunging. I took it he was talking soley about loose RP work. And I do agree, that we need one cue for one response. I'm probably guilty myself of being too vague on certain cues and causing confusion. I'll still RP my horses but I'll probably be more ware of my "one cue".

And like someone else mentioned, any tool in the wrong hands can be harmful. Exactly what Irisgreen and her mother were talking about with the example given. The lady didn't know what she was doing, and she was chasing, instilling fear. NOT what RP work was intended for.

And Arabians RP just fine. :mad::p Vance (Arab/OH) loves to RP and knows exactly what he's doing. It has really reinforced "Good Boy" as a positive response. He knows when he's done something good and loves it. I use the RP as a warmup a lot of times to get his silly Arabian jitters/kinks out of him before I ride.

[WashingtonBay]

My question to them then is if the round pen wasn’t there would the horse still respond the same way. The answer is always no.



Heh... Well, not ~always~ no. My answer is "sometimes" :p

YouTube - 09 26 07 008

[IrisGreen]

Ohh, Ok, I know who you are talking about now. I was thinking he was Tommy Garland (I think that's the Arab trainer). I know it was not Dennis but Dennis does chase in the RP at first.

I have seen just a few of Ryan's shows and the ones I did see I wasn't that impressed with. I mean he did "fix" the horse and now it trailer loads but plenty of trainers can do that with almost the same exact techniques.

I guess I need to watch more of his shows. The main thing is training the OWNER not the horse in most of these "behavioral issues" eppisodes. It was the owner that didn't help the situation and didn't know how to help the horse get over there fear or just made it worse by babying them.

Seems most of the time when I see people on TV that need help with there horse not doing something or having bad behavior it almost always turns out it was the owner that let the horse get away with it or was not a good leader for the horse to feel comfortable taking cues from.

Once the trainer worked with the horse and showed the owner how to do it AND how to be a good leader the horse was fine and did much better for the owner.

I tend to think people need more training then horses do :) I know I had to practice my position and how to give clear cues alot before Muffin and I really got better at lunging. He knew the basics but I needed to refine my cues to make him more responsive and in tune with me.

Mean, nasty horses are a differen story. I'm just talking about a nice horse that's just confussed and needs a good leader.

[WashingtonBay]

That's true, the Arabs do have some different softward running upstairs sometimes. I would never own one, you could not give me one and I don't like training them but I can see why round penning would be a lost cause with some arabians. I lunge Arabs a lot but it's always on a lunge line and over obstacles and stuff. They just don't get the round pen at least that I've worked with but I also have only worked with probably 4.

Well, I like 'em. :p

[Apaches Mom]

Irisgreen, I saw the first half of the trailer loading show (where the horse bolts). I've got the second half to tape tomorrow night. This horse learned that bolting meant release of pressure PLUS he got a treat afterwards. The owner was obviously reinforcing the wrong behavior. Hopefully, once he teaches the horse to load again, he'll teach the owner how to handle him better. One thing about the show that I don't like is he doesn't show you very much of what he does with the horse to "fix it". I guess that's what his dvd's are for. :)

[WashingtonBay]

One thing about the show that I don't like is he doesn't show you very much of what he does with the horse to "fix it". I guess that's what his dvd's are for. :)

Well, that's been my complaint with all those guys, the shows and DVDs I have seen.

My favorite was a DVD on "problem horses" with Richard Shrake where his example horse never so much as pinned an ear out of turn. If only we all could have such problems to solve! ;)

[Palogal]

Seriously...I think I might make a video complete with problems and such and show how to teach a horse to lunge when the horse doesn't want to for example. It's the "not pretty" stuff that people need to see. Training is not always as pretty as the pros try and make it.

[WashingtonBay]

I like Endo for that. He shows it all... even when he gets dumped on his pink pants. :)

[IrisGreen]

Seriously...I think I might make a video complete with problems and such and show how to teach a horse to lunge when the horse doesn't want to for example. It's the "not pretty" stuff that people need to see. Training is not always as pretty as the pros try and make it.

Palogal,

I don't think I have ever seen a picture of you before! Let alone you on video! You have always posted others on horses saying there your "helpers" But I don't think I have ever seen a picture of you. Correct me if I'm wrong.

How are you going to make a video if you can't even post pics of you on a horse here?
It's a great idea to make a detailed video with a completely green horse that has never lunged before. That would help a lot of people. I just don't see you being the person that stars in it, no offense. You kinda have to be a willing to show your face and be comfortable on camera. You can always do what I do, go out in PJ's, warm fuzzy boots and some not matching shirt and work the horse :) I don't care what I look like, I just care if I'm doing it right and if Muffin is responding well. lol

[twofingers]

I am not really a big fan of round pens. I think they give us the illusion of control and unity. I mean really where is the horse going to run off to - it is in a fenced in area. I do think that using one for a young beginner horse or rider is useful but after that; In your "trained" horse we only end up reinforcing both our and the horses stagnet reality. I have found that working at liberty in an arena and a five acre pasture both frustrating, enlightening; and ultimately rewarding.

[Palogal]

I think that kind of depends on the size of the round pen. I don't find the smaller ones useful. I like them to be as big as the circle the horse would travel on the end of a lunge line to give them freedom of movement.

[IrisGreen]

I am not really a big fan of round pens. I think they give us the illusion of control and unity. I mean really where is the horse going to run off to - it is in a fenced in area. I do think that using one for a young beginner horse or rider is useful but after that; In your "trained" horse we only end up reinforcing both our and the horses stagnet reality. I have found that working at liberty in an arena and a five acre pasture both frustrating, enlightening; and ultimately rewarding.

I think these are some good points. It got me thinking....

When I do lunge Muffin it's in his stall, though it's around 55x65 I think. It does keep him in check. He knows he can't really go anywhere. But, when he was younger he would try to dart under his shelter to get out of lunging. He knew the rope would get wrapped around the post and I would have to go and get him out from under the shelter. It was his "escape area". So, when he felt defiant he would dart under there, stop and look at me like "haha" you have to come get me.

Now he knows better then to dart under there. But, I do have him on a line. Maybe I should start working him off line and see if he does as well with out me having a control line on him?

I'm sure he wont at first and will be confused as to why I want him to move with out a line on. He knows the program when I put a line on him, He even gets a little excited sometimes and wants to lunge. He won't understand at first what I'm asking with out the line.

His stall isn't round either so when he was younger he would get stuck in a corner and not know what direction to go. Now he gets the idea to go around me not fallow the fence line.

Once his pen is dry I will give "free" lunging a try and see how he responds. It will give me a better idea of just how "in tune" we are and if he will chose to stay with me and do as I ask or venture off to the other side of the pen and ignore my cues.

I think I might try it. He is great on a line but the real test will be at liberty! lol

[WashingtonBay]

Actually, I think the real test is outside the pen.

It depends what the goal is. In my priorities with a young horse, I'm training him to be accepting and obedient to my encumbrances and ideas, not so much exploring his idea of free will. His behavior and free will inside a pen is not that important to me, his behavior outside in the wide open world of horsie adult work is. If you've run out of fun things to do inside the pen, I'd lunge him outside of it... since I've gotten the impression yours is a horsey neighborhood, then perhaps drive him up and down the road, in sight of other horses, in places he's never been before, wherever you can. Always insisting on control and precision and obedience. Even when it's irritating to him... even when he'd rather not. Those are his important lessons now.

Just saying keep in mind the goal and what you're hoping to achieve. I do free lunge my Bay in our big field, but at his age and stage in life, I'm not trying to teach him anything. The goal with him is purely to observe his movement and see how he's doing... limber him up and get his blood pumping after a long winter off. Much different goal than if I was lunging a 2 year old. Much different goal even, than when I lunge my husband's mare who is 8.

My two cents. :)

[twofingers]

Iris, exactly. I think we must constantly adjust what we do - the horse is a horse and will eventually figure it out once we get the language right.

[IrisGreen]

Actually, I think the real test is outside the pen.

Very true!

Just one problem with that...I'm by myself most of the time:(. My property is not that big (only 1 acre) and once he is out of his pen, if he gets lose from me in the front yard he can run into parked cars, garbage cans, curbs, and equipment with a rope dragging behind him. There's no fenced off arena or area that would be a safe place to train in by myself except his pen. He can't get hurt in there is he spunks out and takes off. So, I don't take him out unless my Mom or someone else that knows how to help handle a horse is here with me just in case I need help.

Muffin has become so curious that he no longer stays on the front grass, he wonders and gets in to everything. What scares me the most is the neighbors have big Oleander bushes on there side of the fence that he could easily reach over and eat if he was lose and got over to that side of he yard.

So, for the most part I do a lot of stuff in his pen and only let him out when the property is completely picked up and I can watch him like a hawk so he doesn't get in to stuff. I only train outside the pen when I have a spotter just in case theres an accident or an injury.

I ground drive him outside his pen because he has always been obedient on the lines but it still worries me that I'm by myself. He is young so I wouldn't put it past him to do something stupid out of the blue on a normal training day. He has launched me off the ground before because he spooked 3 steps forward. That quick jerk forward pulled me off the ground and I landed right behind him ( I was ground driving him). Luckily he stopped when the lines got tight from pulling me off my feet and he didn't spook when I landed behind him. I don't take his power or his lazy personality for granted even though he would never try on purpose to hurt me, little things like that can happen in the blink of an eye and it could have ended badly for me, with no one around to notice.

So, I'm really looking forward to this spring. I'm sending him in for saddle training and he will be boarding at the stables. This will be great for socializing him and also give me an arena that I can work in with other horse owners around as spotters.

I wish I had a fenced off pasture that I could use. Then I wouldn't be afraid of him getting lose and eating Oleander or running over equipment. His stall is the safest place to work in but it's also where he feels safe so it doesn't help with getting him used to distractions. Soon, he will get all the distractions he can handle at the boarding facility. lol

[WashingtonBay]

The risks are real, I understand being cautious working him outside the pen alone. By all means try to avoid an incident where he can get away from you. But I think that also emphasizes the importance of maintaining control all the time. Don't even give him ideas about whether it's a choice by lunging him off line. Once work starts, it's all business, it's about staying within your limitations, that's just the way it is. Stud chain when outside the pen on walks and such would be an extra level of insurance.

My two cents anyhow :)

[twofingers]

you might also want to keep lessons short. I often work while on trail rides - usually I am alone. I will jump off do something for five or so minutes and continue the ride. It isn't the time the lesson takes it is the quality of learning. and all of those 5 minutes add up. where-as sometimes in the course of an hour lesson the horse can get frustrated and blow up resulting in - back to square one.

[Palogal]

Actually, I think the real test is outside the pen.

It depends what the goal is. In my priorities with a young horse, I'm training him to be accepting and obedient to my encumbrances and ideas, not so much exploring his idea of free will. His behavior and free will inside a pen is not that important to me, his behavior outside in the wide open world of horsie adult work is. If you've run out of fun things to do inside the pen, I'd lunge him outside of it... since I've gotten the impression yours is a horsey neighborhood, then perhaps drive him up and down the road, in sight of other horses, in places he's never been before, wherever you can. Always insisting on control and precision and obedience. Even when it's irritating to him... even when he'd rather not. Those are his important lessons now.

Just saying keep in mind the goal and what you're hoping to achieve. I do free lunge my Bay in our big field, but at his age and stage in life, I'm not trying to teach him anything. The goal with him is purely to observe his movement and see how he's doing... limber him up and get his blood pumping after a long winter off. Much different goal than if I was lunging a 2 year old. Much different goal even, than when I lunge my husband's mare who is 8.

My two cents. :)

Good point. Anything you can do in a round pen you should be able to do in an open pasture, the control of a round pen should not be the only way to accomplish your goals as you move on. In the beginning it's great to have a small controlled area (a crutch of sorts) but if you cannot control your horse in an open space - you have not been all that effective.

[IrisGreen]

Yeah, I do agree with you. Anytime I'm around him it's either business or pleasure and he knows the difference. Work is work and I don't put up with him being goofy. Then there's times when I'm just loving on him and he can relax and just be social but always maintaining respect.

One of the things that is good about Muffin is he is very halter sensitive. I don't use a halter on him 90% of the time I'm around him (in his pen). He knows voice and hand signals so I can move him around just fine or make him stand while I mess with him, blanket, brush, or treat wounds. So when I do put a halter on him he is very responsive to cues. This helps because I can get his attention with little effort or the use of any additional tools. He stops when you need him too and doesn't pull you around.

I have had to get him under control a few times and he was pretty easy to calm down. I don't think he knows his own strength either and thats a good thing! :)

Here's a video of him at 22 months old leaving the vet. He was very good for the vet but as we were leaving and exited the hallway there was a horse that came around the building and Muffin wanted to spunk out and take off. The only reason I was able to keep him under control was because he respects the halter and calmed right down when I pulled and told him to "ho". He was still concerned about the horse behind us but he wasn't acting up. Ohh, and he did get in the trailer, I was just changing the lead lines to a longer one just in case he did spunk out or shoot back out of the trailer. He didn't but I just wanted to be safe.

YouTube - Muffin leaving second vet check