Rounding up the frame while longeing....WITHOUT artificial aids...

[elevenelevenxo]

Alright, as I'm sure you all know, harness racers are taught to travel in a very hollow frame with an upright head. See:

http://www.trots.com.au/images/harness.jpg

Rebel, being an ex-trotter, likes to travel like this as well. We're working on getting him to accept and get on the bit under saddle, which he's learning well bit by bit.

My question is during longeing and free longeing, I'd like to get him to round up some more without hooking side reins and other straps up to him, but how do I teach him to do this? Might those artificial aids be a good idea very temporarily, like for 5min, just to show him he CAN hold himself in that kind of frame, and then remove them? Seems like I read where Jessica Jahiel said that was a good method....

[WashingtonBay]

What you want is to encourage development of the undercarriage muscling that the horse does not otherwise typically need. It's actually the muscling in the low abdomen, not the back, that lift the back and help him "round". A horse isn't typically going to voluntarily work harder or move differently than he always has without a reason. There's nothing wrong with using side reins to give him the reason, but he's not going to, after 5 minutes, decide it's a much better way to be and strive to stay there.

You're right they should be used in short increments at first, mostly because it's hard work and can cause cramping to hold his neck and head in one position a long time... But I would consider using them on and off again in the same session five minutes at a time, then stop, let him stretch, flex him to keep him limber, give him a good rubdown of the neck even, and then work some more. If you're savvy, using long lines instead of sidereins does allow you more room for adjustment 'on the fly'.

Without sidereins, trotting poles also engage the abdomen and encourage rounding, cavalleti also can help.

[TheRedHayflinger]

was gonna suggest some ground poles too :) And they can be made out of just about anything...mine are an assortment of PVC pipe, Tree limbs, 4 x 4s....lol

he'll also be very tight in his back muscles for some time as well due to moving in that type of a frame while racing...massaging his back and doing belly lifts will help loosen it up.

[elevenelevenxo]

How about doing some hill work? His barn is an old converted dairy barn with an addition on the back for horse stalls. The stalls are down a decent sized slope, so when it's been really cold, I've been hand walking him up and down the aisle-way, up and down that hill. I had him back up in a couple times the other day and I think it really felt good for him, as funny as that might sound.

Does that help at all too?

We'll definitely be using some trotting poles and cavaletti. My challenge right now is getting a good space to work him in. Our arena is too small to longe, so we've been free longeing...which he's also having to learn. Hopefully the weather warms up enough to melt the ice and snow off of the outdoor ring we have...it's all-weather clay-based and will allow me to hook him up to a longe line. :)

[TheRedHayflinger]

backing up hills is great too :D Hills are a wonderful thing :D

[elevenelevenxo]

he'll also be very tight in his back muscles for some time as well due to moving in that type of a frame while racing...massaging his back and doing belly lifts will help loosen it up.

He wasn't crazy about belly lifts. When I tried doing this, he tried cow-kicking me... :nono: Any suggestions on how to get him to the point where he's ok with that? I'm assuming it was tickling him.

I have a friend who is a certified equine massage therapist....I might see if I can bribe her to come up sometime soon and give him a good rub down. :)

I'm not sure when he was last raced. We haven't been able to get his paper work yet to find out. I know before I got him he was ridden by a rather large man who didn't teach Rebel much of ANYTHING other than "whoa" and "go." And I guess this guy rode inebriated a lot.......so naturally my poor guy's back was pretty screwy when he first came to the barn. A chiro visit helped him a lot.

[TheRedHayflinger]

two ways you can do belly lifts

from the belly...and..the other is pressing just below on either side of the dock of the tail...but if he's cow kicking with the belly, I probably wouldn't try this one.

You can try getting a nice rubber curry and if he likes a good heavy brushing with it, use it to get him to lift while brushing his belly! Some horses are just more thin skinned and ticklish

[Palogal]

I would lunge him in loose side reins to suggest a frame and then back it up while you're riding with lots of lateral and suppling work. It will take a good amount of conditioning to get it accomplished. Trot poles are great too and also hills but as far as lunging I would go with sidereins that are not tight enough to force the issue, just tight enough to suggest bringing the head down.

[elevenelevenxo]

Ok - now my next question is what KIND of side reins? Sliding or standard? I've read before sliding is the best one because it allows a little more leeway for the horse.

[Palogal]

I like the ones with the "doughnut"

I have these...
http://www.statelinetack.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=SLT700702

[YAorNEIGH]

What is your aversion to using those artificial aids, just out of curiosity? :)

The way that we help teach a horse to drop his head, flex, and round up his back is to free lunge with the reins tied back to large rubber bands attached to the D-rings, laced through the stirrups. I'll look and see if I have any pictures of this set-up...The rubber bands are for some extra give, since they will break if anything goes wrong, whereas the D-ring or the leather reins likely would not. The beauty of this is that when the horse lowers its head, the pressure is gone. It's a self-reward. Unlike relying on the rider to recognize the response and reward accordingly, it's foolproof. Definitely start off fairly loose and work slightly tighter bit by bit. We use this on anything from unbrokes to dead brokes. ;)

[TheRedHayflinger]

not her, so I don't know...but I do know that a lot of people (not saying she falls into this catagory) have aversions to some pieces of equipment because they do not properly know how to use it and don't want to do something wrong...I bought some sidereins a while back, and didn't use them for about 3 years, until a friend showed me how to properly adjust them and how to use them. I really didn't have a need to use them until then, but I found them on sale and I did want to learn how to use them...and when the opportunity arose, I called up a friend that I knew had used them a lot and she met up with me and showed me how to use them properly :D

[YAorNEIGH]

I've never used sidereins...We just use the bridlereins. Just long split reins, lol. Oh, and we always start off doing this with a simple snaffle. If the horse has gone in a curb bit before, we'll sometimes use a curb on the broke horses.

[elevenelevenxo]

What is your aversion to using those artificial aids, just out of curiosity? :)

No aversion really, I've just always understood that using as few artificial aids as necessary is the way to go. I have my trainer at the barn to help me, but I'm new to training, so I'm still very much learning....and I don't want to ruin my little horse. :)

[YAorNEIGH]

Very good reason :) And also very true! I think WB's suggestion about the ground poles might be the most helpful one without using any tack or anything...

WB, how does that work exactly, to round them up? I know ground poles can be used to work on cadence and stride, but...I'm not sure how that would work exactly...Enlighten me? :D

[Palogal]

No aversion really, I've just always understood that using as few artificial aids as necessary is the way to go. I have my trainer at the barn to help me, but I'm new to training, so I'm still very much learning....and I don't want to ruin my little horse. :)


You can accomplish this in the saddle with no artificial aids but that would be a lot of work for the horse to learn an entirely new position and have you on him. I hear you though. I use as little gear as possible too. In this case though, it's probably kinder to the horse to let him work without your weight (not that I'm saying you're heavy:)) to learn.

[elevenelevenxo]

See, another issue for us is we're trying to teach him riding is FUN, not bad work that's going to hurt him.

He's so used to toting around a big drunken guy, he's just always poised for the worst and he really needs to learn to carry himself in a balanced frame and not be so darn tense. So we're trying to teach him how to carry himself in a better frame in addition to finding work fun and interesting. He's getting it....I'm just looking for new ways to do this from the ground to work on some manners issues as well. He's a dominant horse, so I figure groundwork won't hurt at all - we need to establish who's boss. :) And if I can kill two birds with one stone, per se....then I'd like to that. Just don't want to try something that'll hurt my guy or be ineffective.

I'll be on the hunt for some side reins....though truth be told, money is tight right now and I may be relegated to making do without new tack for a while. :(

I HOPE I HOPE I HOPE I HOPE I get this job my trainer is telling me about........

[Palogal]

Bailing twine and rubber bands will work in a pinch! Just make sure they're absolutely even.

[WashingtonBay]

Very good reason :) And also very true! I think WB's suggestion about the ground poles might be the most helpful one without using any tack or anything...

WB, how does that work exactly, to round them up? I know ground poles can be used to work on cadence and stride, but...I'm not sure how that would work exactly...Enlighten me? :D

Well, some define collection not as a 'position', but a state of readiness and poise.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=106&pictureid=681

See the little line of muscle along his underside above... that's what lifts the back... when the horse is properly engaged, they are working.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=106&pictureid=691

[HeartofSteel]

I personally don't like the side reins with donuts, the donuts bounce around while the horse is trotting or cantering making the pressure non consistent. I have some that have elastic inserts but I'm not a big fan of those either because I have seen alot of horse learn to lean on that pressure because it will stretch to a certain point. The ones that I use the most are the sliding "vienna" or balancing type side reins, I like them alot.
As for more of a natural collection, transitions will work wonders even on the lunge. That is how I started Niko, we did many many transitions. For example though if he tried to "die" on his downward trot-walk transitions he got a chance to do a "big walk" but if not it was back to a trot. The walk can be used so much as good exercise but alot of people just let them die and mozy along. Yes, there is a rest walk but even then there is no reason it can't be big.

[quest]

Quest used to be the worst of the worst when it came to head up hollow backed, whether it be on the lunge or undersaddle. Even side reins wouldn't change the way he traveled. We worked really hard undersaddle, now that he has developed more correct muscling, 90% of the time I lunge him he holds himself in a beautifully round long and low position. You can try without aids, after a while your horse might do a little, but it will probably be more effective working it undersaddle

[John Boy]

Two techniques I use to free the horse and stretch to make the back more connected to the rider seat are in the saddle as well as lunging.
As you noticed the horse pic in WB's post the horse has to look down walk or troting over cavaletti's.
While this is done I command "head down"
While doing this with out poles and after a nice warmup , I will command this and the horse will drop his head as low as possible and still be in frame and bending.
You can encourage this , I do by myself bending over - like coming down to his eye level. This is a hard gymnastic position for a horse , and it takes a while for a horse to feel comfortable doing it .
Now this same thing can be done under saddle.
First you need to warm up the horse , then ensuring the horse is holding 'carrying' the bit , you slowly let the inside rein become slack, while maintaining the outside rein connection. (as you can see I am refering to riding english)
While your inside rein is loose , you slowly massage the neck of the horse and command head down.
This I have found works best with a medium speed trot. Slowly releasing the outside rein to a loose rein , the horse in now carrying the bit , head down , stretching the back and strengthing the stomach muscles.
This same in saddle technique can be done on a lunge line if you have an extra person.
When I do it in the saddle , i ususally do it on a long fence line.
(Sometimes when I know my horse is stubborn and won't drop his head , I'll lightly push his head down to encourage him , and of course any time he goes into the correct position I praise him)

[luvs2ride1979]

My question is during longeing and free longeing, I'd like to get him to round up some more without hooking side reins and other straps up to him, but how do I teach him to do this? Might those artificial aids be a good idea very temporarily, like for 5min, just to show him he CAN hold himself in that kind of frame, and then remove them? Seems like I read where Jessica Jahiel said that was a good method....

I am going to be a nay-sayer and say it can't be done. You need SOMETHING to encourage him to round, otherwise he's going to go around the way he's comfortable. Once he learns to lower his head and round, you can wean him off the side reins. My mare will now go long and low without side reins and will even reach up under herself with her hind legs if asked right, but it took a long time with side reins and saddle work to get her there. My naturally high headed ArabxTB gelding is likely to never get there, lol.

Long and low, reaching well (for her), free lunging.
http://www.2hottotrot.com/data/637/trot.jpg


I would recommend using side reins, set LOW on the saddle/girth or surcingle. Set your inside rein 2 holes (1-3") shorter than your outside rein. Leave them a bit long at first while he warms up, so they only have contact when he gets really high. Slowly shorten them as he relaxes and gets used to the pressure. You want to end up with them as short as you would have the reins when riding, so he really has to look for a hold a comfortable "spot." Drive him forward with your whip, asking him to come through from the hind end. Give lots of praise when he makes the right effort.

I would keep him on a lunge line or long lines when you have side reins on. I don't like to free lunge with reins.

Once he's responding well, try using a "pulley" rein instead of side reins. Feed your lunge line through the bit and attach it to the girth or surcingle, so it acts a bit like a draw rein. How tight you pull determines how much pressure is on the bit. Pull in to ask for the head to lower (give a driving aid to ask for more reach at the same time) and loosen the rein for "release" or reward (give a GOOD BOY) at the same time. You can add a voice command like "down" at the same time, so he associates the word with him lowering his head and rounding. That will help when free lunging or lunging without side reins.

Here's a picture of my ArabxTB gelding working in long lines that are fed through the bit as pulley reins. He's relatively round, reaching well with his hind end, and seems in good spirits (ears forward, eye soft). The bit is pulled back into his mouth pretty strongly here. Raymond was giving him a half halt with the outside rein. This was only his third time in the longlines, before he started his saddle training.
http://trainingspecial.com/site/images/photoalbum/2/trot_ray2.jpg

Another view during this saddle training session.
http://trainingspecial.com/site/images/photoalbum/2/trot_frontview.jpg

Here's the next day, on the lines. The lines are not pulley style though, they are connected directly to the bit. Notice how relaxed he is. He's a tad hollow through the back, but not bad considering how early in his training this was taken. We were working on "slow and relaxed" that day, so we weren't as concerned with "round and through" as we were the day before.
http://trainingspecial.com/site/images/photoalbum/2/ray_trot2.jpg

If the horse is smart enough and the training applied properly, you shouldn't need to use the side reins or pulley reins for very many training sessions. Once the horse gets it, you will only need to use them briefly during warm up to get the horse in the correct way of going. Once he's developed the right muscle, then you'll only need them ocassionally as a "refesher" should you need to go back to ground work for any reason.

[SuperSTB]

Okay... although you may not be interested in Dressage persay, the idea of collection and balance still pertains.

Set aside a couple hours and read this website. From bits to collection.

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/index.php

In particular this page- but reading the info on bits and collection will give you that "holy-crap-now-that-makes-sense" moments.

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/gadgets.php

[SuperSTB]

Now that I put that out there here's some additional stb helpful tips.

Hills are important- if you can find a hill to lunge on that'd be sweet. Walks and trots of various speeds. I also prefer long lining vs. plain ole lunging.

Lunging over poles is okay but I think poles should be reserved for under saddle work.

[elevenelevenxo]

Thanks all! SuperSTB, I'll definitely check out those links. :)

He's been doing well under saddle in reaching down and rounding his back. Not close to being consistent really, but he's definitely trying for me.

[HobbyHorse101]

Just to add to what everyone has been saying and this is mainly under saddle but it also helps to teach it on the ground first.

Teach forehand pivots and hind pivots really help a horse learn to lift their back and helps teach them to move off you, and your leg. I like to do a figure 8 so it goes:
1) Circle, in the middle halt, pivot go the opposite direction of the next circle.
2) Circle, in the middle halt, pivot and go the same direction of your next circle.
You can keep changing it up and change where you halt so your horse doesn't learn to just halt in the middle.

I was doing that with my hunter this evening (practicing for flying changes) and he was coming onto the bit and in a nice lovely frame. =) Hope you get him going around like the lovely horse he's ment to be.