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WashingtonBay
02-17-2009, 10:28 AM
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Students Aim for Gun Rights on Campus

Group Advocates for Concealed Weapons to Protect Against College Shootings
By Brigid Schulte
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, February 15, 2009; C05

HARRISONBURG, Va., Feb. 14 -- Kyle Smith agreed to play the bad guy.

In a scenario eerily designed to imitate the Virginia Tech massacre, when a lone gunman shot and killed 32 people in the nine minutes it took for campus police to respond, Smith burst into a classroom here Saturday, his right index finger pointed as if it were a gun drawn, and immediately "shot" the teacher between the eyes.

"You people treated me wrong," the freshman yelled, a little sheepishly. "I just can't take it anymore."

As the four students in the room screamed, hit the floor and crouched under desks, he methodically fired five more shots with his finger and "killed" them all. In 23 seconds, it was over.

"You're all dead," Shawn Deehan, a gun rights advocate from GunRightsWeek.org, told the jeans-clad James Madison University students crumpled on the floor and waiting for his cue that the reenactment was over. "A great rate of response from law enforcement is six minutes. Six minutes. If you don't care if you live or die, that's a suitable response. But if you're concerned about living another day, another minute, then that's too long."

Then Deehan reran the scenario the way he and other gun rights advocates would prefer: with the teacher and two students carrying concealed weapons.

Only Utah allows students and teachers to carry weapons on college campuses. Most other states leave it to the discretion of university administrators. And nearly all -- save Blue Ridge Community College in Virginia and Colorado State University -- have decreed that weapons on campus are a bad idea.

The Virginia Tech massacre gave rise to two opposing and equally passionate movements. Many of the victims' friends and families founded Students for Gun Free Schools. They say guns are the last thing that college campuses, already hotbeds of hormones, alcohol and heated emotions, need. Yesterday's demonstration came courtesy of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus's JMU chapter, which was chartered in January.

Both groups agree that the pro-gun group is winning the numbers game. Students for Gun Free Schools has about 12,000 members on Facebook. The Concealed Carry group, with members in all 50 states and the District of Columbia, has more than 36,000.

Efforts by gun rights advocates to allow students and teachers to carry concealed weapons on campus have never gotten out of committee in the gun-friendly Virginia legislature the past four years. And a spate of attempts to introduce similar bills in a number of states since the Virginia Tech shooting have failed. But gun rights advocates say the battle is just beginning. And the battleground now, they say, is the hearts and minds and trigger fingers of students themselves.

What better way to create converts and advocates, they say, than to put them in the shoes of Virginia Tech victims and let them feel the difference between being defenseless and having the power to take action.

For the second scenario, bad guy Smith again barged into the classroom and again whacked the teacher between the eyes. But this time, Kelly Clouston and Leah Sargent, students at James Madison, bounced up out of their seats, assumed a wide-legged stance and pointed their "gun" fingers at Smith, not forgetting to pull their hands back slightly to imitate a pistol's recoil after they fired. Smith fell to the floor four seconds after he'd entered.

"See? One person, maybe two, got shot and it's over," Deehan said proudly. "This is the reality with concealed carry. It's over." Clouston and Sargent high-fived each other.

He counseled the students on their classroom shooting technique: "It would be better to drop to the floor on your belly and shoot up."

But Omar Samaha, one of the organizers of the opposing Students for Gun Free Schools whose sister was killed in the massacre, said that these reenactments, in addition to being "disrespectful," prove nothing.

"The way they're setting it up, these students are aware of what's about to happen. It's not like that in a crisis," he said.

"When you talk to survivors, they say there's no time to react. There's complete chaos. They say that if there were guns in the classroom, it just would have been so much worse. A lot of students are missing the point here, which is prevention, not reaction."

Samaha's group recently posted videos on YouTube of very different scenarios with guns on campus. In a short film titled "The Bully," a classroom tussle turns deadly when three students whip out handguns and point them at fellow students' heads.

Yesterday's demonstration, in a classroom at the Top Gun Shooting Range in Harrisonburg, was just one of a number of Virginia Tech classroom shooting scenarios that gun rights advocates had been staging all week at JMU, using Nerf guns, plastic toy rifles and fingers. Organizers said more than 100 students and community members came to hear lectures about gun rights, watch the two Virginia Tech scenarios and spend a sunny day shooting actual pistols at the firing range.

"We want people to understand that guns can be safe and guns can be fun," Katie Cannon said. The College Republicans' event coordinator helped organize the gun rights week.

Sargent, a senior music education major, donned thick plastic glasses and screwed bright orange earplugs into her ears. "The line is hot!" organizers called out. "Fire away!" She picked up a Glock 19 9mm and stared down its sights. Pa CHA. The gun discharged. Bull's-eye.

"This is really fun. I loved it," Sargent said after her target shooting session. "I'm really proud of this." She unfurled her target, with a cluster of holes directly in the center of the bull's-eye. "She's a natural," one of the instructors said admiringly. She tucked her long blond hair behind one ear and smiled. A spent bullet casing dropped to the floor.

clpUPMICH
02-17-2009, 10:42 AM
I'm all for it. I get my permit to carry next Tuesday, 11am (can you tell I'm excited!;)) and its usually in my truck anyways (locked case is legal). I attend a small northern university where hunting is a big culture, and the dorms have gun lockers. I believe students and faculty carrying weapons would be accepted here. And if they're concealed, you don't actually know for sure who is carrying one - it would deter a lot of criminal action if there were a chance of immediate repercussions to some whacko out there. Just my opinion.

Crystal

WashingtonBay
02-17-2009, 10:44 AM
There is no place more vulnerable for the law-abiding than a posted and advertised "gun-free zone".

WashingtonBay
02-17-2009, 10:48 AM
I'm all for it. I get my permit to carry next Tuesday, 11am (can you tell I'm excited!;))


Good for you Crystal. :)

What is the process for getting a CWP in Michigan?

Washington is a shall-issue state, pending criminal and mental health background checks. Fee is $60 - good for 5 years.

rocknK
02-17-2009, 11:03 AM
This might be good for college age students, but most CCW is for 21 and older. Wouldn't do much for a Columbine-type situation. I bet those sociopaths in CO would've thought twice if they knew a bunch of teachers were packing just not who. Or they would've just shot the teachers first, who knows??

WashingtonBay
02-17-2009, 11:11 AM
Right - it's talking about college campuses, and those students who could otherwise legally carry, i.e. over 21.

Won't help in high school situations, short of allowing faculty there to carry. That would be different legislation.

twofingers
02-17-2009, 11:24 AM
I think you will find interesting and enlighening discussion on this topic at"
www.opencarry.org that's not a link you will have to type it in to your line.

twofingers
02-17-2009, 11:25 AM
ok I guess it is a link.

clpUPMICH
02-17-2009, 02:37 PM
Good for you Crystal. :)

What is the process for getting a CWP in Michigan?

Washington is a shall-issue state, pending criminal and mental health background checks. Fee is $60 - good for 5 years.

I got my handgun (9mm Ruger) as a Christmas present when I was 20. I wasn't old enough to buy ammunition, but old enough to own the gun (couldn't buy it myself, but gifts are fine). I had a friend buy ammo for me til I was old enough (haha sort of like beer :innocent:).

To get my CCW, I attended an 8hr class detailing the laws and circumstances for using your weapon, spent a half hour at a range shooting (I'm now known as Annie Oakley, thank you very much), and got my certificate that I completed the class. Then I went to my county courthouse, filled out the application, submitted 2 passport quality photos for my ID, was fingerprinted and background checked, and next Tuesday I attend the Gun Board Meeting and they may or may not ask me a few questions, and I'll receive my permit as long as I don't meet their crazy wacko standards. My permit will be good for 5 years as long as it isn't suspended and/or I violate a rule and get caught. If I'm pulled over, I just have to notify the officer immediately that I am carrying - if not, it can be a $500 fine and a 6-month suspension of CCW license.

Class Fee: $100
County Application: $105 including application, fingerprints, and FBI background check
Photos: $10

License to carry ... priceless lol :innocent:

WashingtonBay
02-17-2009, 02:47 PM
Ouch... That's a much more complex process than it is here. Good to compare and learn about other areas. Good luck!

peace_baby
02-17-2009, 03:30 PM
I carry a gun in my console to school.
It's technically mine, but it's reg. under my dad's name and he has me carry it for personal protection (not like it would do me any good in my console while I'm waaaay across campus from the parking lot I park in). But in Georgia, it doesn't require you to register a gun that you own, however it is illegal if you've been convicted of any kind of crime before.

http://www.georgiapacking.org/law.php

WashingtonBay
02-17-2009, 03:48 PM
Well, so far, we don't seem to have a lot of opposition to this :)

Ragnar Danneskjold
02-17-2009, 03:53 PM
Well, so far, we don't seem to have a lot of opposition to this :)

I voted. :)

WashingtonBay
02-17-2009, 03:54 PM
Yeah - but I already knew how you'd vote. ;)

rocknK
02-17-2009, 07:31 PM
So we got 7 folks in agreement, I say we send it of to DC for confirmation. Maybe we can slip it on BO's desk while he's signing all that other stuff!;)

alittleoffkey
02-17-2009, 07:43 PM
I'm all for it. I'm saving my pennies to pay for my CCW - which costs $45 here in GA - including the background check. We also don't have to inform cops when we're pulled over that we have a concealed weapon... but my Aunt has her CCW infront of her drivers license, so she hands both of them to cops when (not if, when - she does drive a Charger :D) she gets pulled over. :D

She's a teacher - I'm all for faculty being able to carry handguns in to school.

ProvenPaint
02-17-2009, 08:37 PM
Yep I voted too. This gal really sums it up well for me (this is the only clip I have found with more of her testimony in it...about how long it takes to change a clip & other details - the 1st 6ish minutes is what I was after to share with this link, not so much the rest):

YouTube - Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment!

twofingers
02-17-2009, 09:14 PM
that was a very good example. I might add that in 1968 when civil rights was at it's hights the black panthers would show up at rallies and police barricades - executing their 2nd amendment rights which as the lady pointed out is intended to protect us against our own government.. the result of that action was the:Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968 (Pub.L. 90-351, June 19, 1968, 82 Stat. 197, 42 U.S.C. § 3711. you should read it. it specifically mentions the people resisting the government, to protect their own persons and rights. just saying is all.

alittleoffkey
02-17-2009, 11:00 PM
That's a great clip of her Proven. I hadn't seen that before, thanks for sharing!

outriding01
02-18-2009, 01:12 AM
I'm a member of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus on Facebook. I carry a small knife on my at all times, regardless of where I am, but that's like a stick in a sword fight......

mare
02-18-2009, 03:41 AM
That was a good clip, Proven.

I became a member of Jews for the Preservation of Firearm Ownership recently. No, I'm not Jewish, but they have the history, the memory, for how the elimination of private gun ownership goes hand in hand with the loss of other personal rights and even lives. You can search for their site. It is well done.

shewasmyshadow
02-18-2009, 06:06 AM
I don't know how to aim a gun or even how to shoot one, but I'm not against those that know what their doing carrying them. I'd be glad to be hiding under the table with that lady from the video clip and I'd hope to God that she was carrying her gun.

clpUPMICH
02-18-2009, 08:24 AM
I don't know how to aim a gun or even how to shoot one, but I'm not against those that know what their doing carrying them. I'd be glad to be hiding under the table with that lady from the video clip and I'd hope to God that she was carrying her gun.

And this is the where people lose the focus of a permit to carry ... it's for people who know how to use their weapon. You have to take a class, learn how to shoot/safety, learn the laws and regulations for your state. It's not like they're handing out permits at the grocery store to anyone who wants one. That is how I argue it when people say that if given the right to carry, every John and Jane Doe is going to be carrying a gun around and accidentally shoot someone. The right to carry gives the people who know how to use their weapon a chance to protect themselves against the whacko who DOESN'T HAVE A PERMIT.

I think it sounds like I'm arguing ... with myself I think lol. The right to bear arms is one of my soap boxes.

(I wasn't picking on you SWMS, I was using your quote as a valid reason why it is a good thing that some people realize they don't need to carry a gun, if other people are able to).

Crystal

WashingtonBay
02-18-2009, 08:41 AM
I want to quibble with you only on the details.

Not all states require any competency testing to carry concealed weapons, mine does not. BUT, it is a distinction without a difference in that there are not incidences of gun mishandling in my state, any more than those who have such classes. People who carry weapons generally have a vested interest in becoming skilled with the weapon, they're carrying it because they have a desire to protect themselves. They do it because of their own interest, not because the government tells them to. The classes and testing is largely a feel-good measure and an added cost and hassle for the law abiding, it's a cure without a disease.

There is a very real psychological change that happens when a person arms themselves and walks out into public, I think almost without exception... among those with functional social conscience, anyway. The responsibility is not lost on those who do it. You automatically approach the world with more awareness, more responsibility, and more caution.

I can't help but wish in the next very public shooting rampages we have, that some armed citizen will be there and able to stop it. But that is not what I see as the biggest reason to protect yourself. The much more common threat is much more traditional. Walking out to your car in dark places at night, alone... Arriving home to a burglary in process. You can't predict when or if it will ever happen to any of us, but if it does, there's few other options available if you haven't already taken steps, every day, all those days when you didn't need to.

Palogal
02-18-2009, 08:50 AM
There is no place more vulnerable for the law-abiding than a posted and advertised "gun-free zone".

Exactly.

It's a playground for criminals, like advertising "this street does not lock it's doors at night."

It would be safer to post "Guns welcome here". or "arms required to enter this area"

alittleoffkey
02-18-2009, 08:51 AM
Georgia doesn't require a competency test either, just that you have a relatively clean background check (nothing violent or felonic) and your fingerprints don't show up at a crime scene.

Like WB said, most people who bother to get a CCW, know the responsibility, already know their weapon(s), and are even more cautious in public.

clpUPMICH
02-18-2009, 08:59 AM
In Michigan, if I am being robbed and am not in danger of being harmed (loss of life, limb, imminent danger (i.e. being raped which can cause death from diseases)), I cannot shoot someone breaking in to my home. I have to watch them steal my vehicle or my TV and if they don't approach me threateningly, I can't shoot them. We had about an hour-long discussion/heated argument during our class, and that's how it works. If my dog is in the truck and someone steals it, I can't shoot them to stop the theft (dogs are property). If my child is in the truck ... I think that I could because of imminent danger to someone else. The instructor told us that if the person is within 20ft, and you have to shoot because of a threat, you are usually covered under the law. If it's farther away than 20 ft ... you may have to answer questions from the police and lawyers.

I should say that I don't actually plan on carrying my handgun anywhere in public ... I'm on the backroads hunting a lot, or backpacking, and I like to have it in my truck. I shouldn't say this on a public forum, but I forget to lock the case, or leave the loaded magazine in the case (which is illegal in MI), so basically having my permit just keeps me safe now in case I forget. I prefer road tripping with it loaded under the center console though. There is no reciprocity in Wisconsin, but Minnesota does. I'm pretty sure Illinois doesn't either, although if I'm driving through either state, without stopping, I think it's okay to not lock it back in the case.

WashingtonBay
02-18-2009, 09:14 AM
In Michigan, if I am being robbed and am not in danger of being harmed (loss of life, limb, imminent danger (i.e. being raped which can cause death from diseases)), I cannot shoot someone breaking in to my home. I have to watch them steal my vehicle or my TV and if they don't approach me threateningly, I can't shoot them. We had about an hour-long discussion/heated argument during our class, and that's how it works. If my dog is in the truck and someone steals it, I can't shoot them to stop the theft (dogs are property). If my child is in the truck ... I think that I could because of imminent danger to someone else. The instructor told us that if the person is within 20ft, and you have to shoot because of a threat, you are usually covered under the law. If it's farther away than 20 ft ... you may have to answer questions from the police and lawyers.


These are difficult concepts to break down to cold text in an instruction manual. They always end up sounding very constructed. They're terrific to discuss, we all should know what our law is and how it is typically applied in our jurisdictions.

But think about this. If there is a person you don't know who has entered an occupied home, we don't KNOW what his plan is. We don't know if he's there for the television or some kind of sick thrill, or both, but if he remains in the room after you've made yourself known, I consider him a threat to your life. Period. Now, if you have the option to leave, by all means, DO. Self Defense is not a goal, it's a last resort. And if he runs away, no you can't shoot him, but if he stays and faces you he's a threat. Period. He's going to have to do something with you now, he's been discovered.

Will you be questioned if you shoot him? Sure. But it's going to come down to your perception, a 'reasonable person's' perception of a life threatening risk. Your right to defend yourself is not about the television set. It's about the fact that you found an intruder that is unknown to you in your home who was perfectly willing to face you, and you felt a grave need to protect yourself. Period. Talking about the thief's motives is what lawyers do in classrooms. We can't know, we can't ever know. But we can make some assumptions based on what is reasonable to assume. Those who only want to steal don't stick around when they find an occupant in the home.

WashingtonBay
02-18-2009, 09:25 AM
Very good book for anyone who wants to consider self defense:

Amazon.com: In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection: Massad F. Ayoob: Books

Palogal
02-18-2009, 10:02 AM
Here in Texas we don't have those "gray areas". You enter someone's home uninvited you can predict you will not be leaving intact.:) You steal someone's property, animals or tamper with them and are caught the same rules apply. However, we're pretty safe in my neck of the woods. The huger murder rate in dallas is more due to the concentration of certain populations in parts of Dallas. It's not at all indicative of the whole state.

WashingtonBay
02-18-2009, 10:18 AM
Yeah while not all states have as clear a defense law as Texas, most are reasonable in their prosecutions where personal defense is concerned. It's pretty unpopular for prosecutors in most areas to bring people up on charges for shooting an intruder in their home. Particularly a young woman alone. I hope clpUPMICH comes back and others open this up for wider discussion, because I think it's good discussion!

We always want our actions to be impeccably defendable. But we are not expected to have a God-like omniscience about what the intruder intends to do, or not do. Are we supposed to quiz him? If so, are we supposed to take his word for it? I'd assume whatever plan he might have had is up for rapid changes on the fly as things go wrong for him. I'm particularly bothered by the idea clp must have heard in her class is that the only apparent fear we need have with a rapist is some medical fear of an STD. If that's what they're teaching women is their duty in the case of rape they're wrong wrong wrong, and I'd take that one to a jury without a second thought. That's the least of my worries. We are NOT required to leave our safety up to the whims of an intruder who is violating us. By then it is WAYYYY too late.

clpUPMICH
02-18-2009, 10:51 AM
I'll be back later for more discussion, I'm pretending to write my dissertation right now ... ugh, and grading reports.

Just want to say real quick though, that you can defend yourself against rape (whether you're a man or a woman), but most people don't normally think of rape as leading to death; but it can, because of STDs like AIDS. That's just how our instructor (State Trooper) stated it. Imminent threat of death, injury and something else ... I have to dig out my books when I have time tonight ... which is good, because I need to review for my Gun Board meeting in case they do any more than just make sure I don't look like a crazy (good thing I have to go BEFORE I teach an undergraduate lab for 4 hrs in a row ... ).

Crystal

WashingtonBay
02-18-2009, 10:56 AM
Well I definitely disagree with your instructor on that. If you want to open it up to something like date rape with a guy you know, yes, it can get complicated in terms of actual reasonable fear for your life.

But stranger-rape is not just unplanned sex. It's very much a reasonable threat to life. For all the gals that are just mauled and released, many are found dead in ditches. It's not a chance I think anyone should be expected to take.

But you get to work. We'll talk later!

alittleoffkey
02-18-2009, 11:12 AM
Here in Georgia we have laws a lot like those in TX - we're also now allowed to carry concealed weapons on MARTA (as my Aunt said - "There have been guns on MARTA since it opened.") and a few other places that were previously 'forbidden'. We're also allowed to shoot trespassers now, if we feel remotely threatened by them (as opposed to the law that used to be like yours, clp).

And if someone broke into my home, I would certainly feel threatened.

peace_baby
02-18-2009, 01:18 PM
Here in Georgia we have laws a lot like those in TX - we're also now allowed to carry concealed weapons on MARTA (as my Aunt said - "There have been guns on MARTA since it opened.") and a few other places that were previously 'forbidden'. We're also allowed to shoot trespassers now, if we feel remotely threatened by them (as opposed to the law that used to be like yours, clp).

And if someone broke into my home, I would certainly feel threatened.

That's why I'm kinda glad I live in this state lol.

"Welcome. We're glad Georgia's on your mind." ;)

mare
02-18-2009, 04:32 PM
Here in Wyoming you have to take a safety course and re-up every few years. Two of my three kids are competent to handle handguns and rifles. The third does not have the temperament to handle a gun in a high stress situation. She recognized it without any input from us or instructors.

We can, in this state, defend ourselves and our livestock.

alittleoffkey
02-19-2009, 07:29 AM
Who disagreed? Not to point fingers; I'm just curious as to why. :) Opposition keeps things interesting.

cowpuncher
02-22-2009, 05:24 PM
I'm a member of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus on Facebook. I carry a small knife on my at all times, regardless of where I am, but that's like a stick in a sword fight......


Nonsense. While a firearm is always more preferable, I know of numerous instances of someone with a knife winning against a bad guy with a gun. As Steinbeck stated, the mind is the ultimate weapon, everything else is just incidental. There is actually a lot of science behind the concept that someone with a contact range weapon can beat a gun carrier if the former knows what he/she is doing.


Mare: THe great thing I love about Wyoming (and Montana, and Idaho, and Nevada, and Oregon, and Utah, and Arizona, and I think Colorado....? Open Carry is completely legal with no permit necessary. I do not have a CCW, and won't get one, since it's de facto weapons registration, and I carry daily, and have never been hassled. Ever hear of University of Wyoming having a campus shooting? Not in my memory---everybody's got guns.