Disrespectful or playful?

[elevenelevenxo]

When I longe Rebel, sometimes he'll act naughty and point his bum towards me and give some bucks. Other times he'll get too close for comfort to me - the longe whip doesn't seem to have much effect (I don't hit him with it of course, but most horses respect it and keep away from it), and he comes in towards me, despite my waving my arms, telling him "AHHH" and giving a crack with the whip. He'll usually keep going away from me at that point, shaking his neck and acting like a stallion or something. I know he's a dominant horse, but I've never longed a horse that hasn't either simply listened perfectly or had no idea what to do and just kind of looked at me, lol. I've never worked with one who's done the things Rebel tends to do.

I can't tell if he's being totally disrespectful and aggressive or if he's being playful. Either way it's behavior that needs to be curbed....what would you do?

Note: I do not have the space to put him on a line and longe him, so all our longeing is free longeing in our rinky dink arena. At the new barn I WILL have the space to put him on a line, and I can't WAIT for that.

[WashingtonBay]

If you can lunge him free, you can lunge him on a line, and I would. There is no benefit in him being loose.

I would keep him composed and give line corrections for any sass. "ACK! NO! Now go forward.... nicely."

My goal would be for him to keep his composure and follow your lead. You can't do that just chasing him around with a whip. And if he doesn't respect the whip.... I would nail him with it if he comes at you. Another good time to have him on a line.

[Miracle Whip]

There is nothing wrong with free lunging. What is the problem - that he won't come in to you? I expect a certain amount of attitude from my horses, free lunging is different, and the purpose of it is to get the kinks out - I just lunge until they DO listen to me. If Whip doesn't come in to the center then I keep working him.

Ginger doesn't know to come in, so I have to stop her and walk up to her. The gelding will buck and kick in my direction at first. He does not act like a stud though - no snorting, or dancing. Whip only bucks once in a while and I have never had a problem with it. Better they do it before they are saddled.

(neither of my horses buck under saddle, just thought I would clarify that)

[elevenelevenxo]

Thanks WB. My concern with having him on a line is the size of our arena. My guess is it's about 25' wide - I'm not exaggerating when I say it's TINY. Big reason why I'm looking to move him elsewhere. I know it's bad to work on small circles and don't want to hurt his legs.

Maybe I'm just being a wimp here....? :doh:

[vicklynn]

I think because he is free lunging, it may be playing, but still could be disrespectful. I hear you say it a small area, but I would still put a short lunge line on him and make him respect your distance, and quit bucking twards you, ect.
How small is your rinky dink area? If it is as big as a round pen, then that is big enough to work on manners.
Good luck.

Just read WBs reply....I agree.

[elevenelevenxo]

I think because he is free lunging, it may be playing, but still could be disrespectful. I hear you say it a small area, but I would still put a short lunge line on him and make him respect your distance, and quit bucking twards you, ect.
How small is your rinky dink area? If it is as big as a round pen, then that is big enough to work on manners.
Good luck.

It's super narrow. I'm bad at judging size and distances, but I'd say probably 25'x70'

[FredRock]

I'd say if he gets too close and ignores you, it's time to remind him why he's supposed to respect the whip. Give him a hit, seriously. He's disrespecting you, showing aggression by pointing his butt towards you, and invading your space without relenting. He needs a reminder, and the faster you do it, the better for your safety.

What I would personally do is chase him and over-react when he points my butt towards me, smack him with the whip on his butt (for the safety of space) and chase him away. Hoot, holler, wave the whip, and if that doesn't work after the first few times, I would honestly stop free lunging all together if I could. I'd rather deal with a semi-hot horse under saddle than get kicked and trampled. Some horses don't do well free lunging, and if I knew I was moving barns anyways, I'd wait until I could work on respect on a line before trying free again.

[WashingtonBay]

Thanks WB. My concern with having him on a line is the size of our arena. My guess is it's about 25' wide - I'm not exaggerating when I say it's TINY. Big reason why I'm looking to move him elsewhere. I know it's bad to work on small circles and don't want to hurt his legs.

Maybe I'm just being a wimp here....? :doh:

Just reverse him from time to time, and make the sessions fairly short and useful. He shouldn't need a lot of repetitive circling. Again.... if you can work him loose, you can work him on a line. I don't see why not.

[ImaBronsonBear]

I totally agree with WB on this one, and IMO - i don't really care if he's playing or not, he does NOT turn his butt towards me and kick. If he accidentally got too close... Oh, and if you want him to respect the whip, he's got to know it's gonna hurt if he doesn't obey.;) Ask once, ask again, then nail him with it. Unless you're flogging a horse, you really can't hurt them with a lunge whip. You can just sting them a bit to make them think, "hey! i need to do what she says." And unless you have your timing down really well, you usually can't even sting them.

[vicklynn]

Just reverse him from time to time, and make the sessions fairly short and useful. He shouldn't need a lot of repetitive circling. Again.... if you can work him loose, you can work him on a line. I don't see why not.
Exactly, make him change directions, get his feet moving the way you want them going.
Sometimes Ill let Myst or City go 1/2 way around, switch them up, and again maybe 1/4 the way around, its about me working them, and about their manners for a bit, not just letting them do circles. They start watching me really good then, and at times will make the move in the opposite direction so quick its awesome(but that took time)
I learned that from Clinton Anderson, great thinking and movement on the horses part.
Short sessions at first are good sessions.

[TheRedHayflinger]

I'd also think nothing of giving a crack with the whip...my girls have felt it many a time when they get too bold for their own good...Riot was bad about it, because he had no fear of it at all...even after he'd been cracked a time or two, he'd always test me every time just to see if I'd ever let him get away with it.....the one time I did (by slow reaction time on my part) oh buddy....it was like starting over from square one with him...he was so smart it killed me sometimes..LOL Had to be very precise with him, or he'd walk alllll over you.

[elevenelevenxo]

Had to be very precise with him, or he'd walk alllll over you.

Sounds like Rebel. :)

Thanks for all the advice guys! It sounds really helpful. I can't WAIT til the new barn...working him will be a lot easier with more space.

[iluvbo]

I agree with everyone here. I personally prefer putting them on a line when they decide to get sassy. For my comfort zone it feels like the line gives me a direct connection to the horse..alittle more control. But thats just my opinion. And the head shaking, butt pointing, ect is a good sign of rebellion. I myself would give a good whack with that whip and make him respect you. They are big animals, I wouldnt want to see him get too close and kick you! :( I hope that helps and I hope things go well for you..keep us updated! Good luck!:)

[luvs2ride1979]

IME, a horse won't respect the lunge whip unless he respects the person holding it. I would try two methods, the first being a bit more "calm" and the second being "whoop that monkey butt." lol

First, when lunging him, keep your shoulder's up and back, look up, keep your body positioned behind his drive line (at his barrel), and keep yourself moving forward in small circle in the middle. Do lots of transitions, throw some trot poles out there, and in general try to keep things from getting boring for him. I like to keep lunge sessions to a max of 10-15 minutes total, switching directions more than once.

When he acts "naughty" keep calm and just keep moving him. Calmly ask for a faster gait or a change in direction. Do something that makes him work just a bit harder than he was before, then let him come back down a bit. Again, stay calm and relaxed, keeping yourself positioned and moving forward. Tell him "good boy" when he's behaving well. Eventually, he get tired of his antics and behave.

If after 3-4 lunge session he hasn't come around, then you need to look at how you handle him the rest of the time. Do you calmly take control 100% of the time, consistently? Do you "allow" certain "cute" behaviors that could possibly escalate into not so cute behaviors? Is he pushy on the lead rope? Is he fidgety during grooming, tacking up, bathing, mounting, etc.? If so, then you need to slowly start to take control, be "calm assertive" as the Dog Whisperer likes to put it, lol. When he's fidgety, lunge him. When he stands still, praise him. If he drags you on the lead rope, walk in circles and figure eights until he calms down. Praise him when he leads nicely. If he's bad about going back to the pasture or stall during feeding him, take him back out to the post and make him stand tied. Once he's calm, try again. If he rushes to his stall, take him back. As soon as he does lead nicely back, praise him and let him eat.

You need to be consistent in how you handle him and he will be consistent in how he acts around you.

One thing that can cause odd behavior is food. If he's getting a high grain diet (more than 1-2 cups of sweet feed), or feed pellets that contain corn, or not enough turn out time and riding to burn off the energy he consumes, then he can end up expressing himself negatively when you do come to exercise him. A change in diet could make a big difference. It certainly can't hurt to try ;).

The route I would have taken first a while back would have been the "whoop that monkey butt" approach. It does work, but the effects aren't always long lasting or consistent. Whenever he turns his butt, crack the whip ON his butt and chase him back out, dominate the inside of the circle by whatever means necessary. While this does express your "authority", it does so through intimidation. That said, sometimes a horse needs a whip across the hiney, and I'm not afraid to use one. But, it's nice if that is a last resort ;).

[elevenelevenxo]

IME, a horse won't respect the lunge whip unless he respects the person holding it. I would try two methods, the first being a bit more "calm" and the second being "whoop that monkey butt." lol

First, when lunging him, keep your shoulder's up and back, look up, keep your body positioned behind his drive line (at his barrel), and keep yourself moving forward in small circle in the middle. Do lots of transitions, throw some trot poles out there, and in general try to keep things from getting boring for him. I like to keep lunge sessions to a max of 10-15 minutes total, switching directions more than once.

When he acts "naughty" keep calm and just keep moving him. Calmly ask for a faster gait or a change in direction. Do something that makes him work just a bit harder than he was before, then let him come back down a bit. Again, stay calm and relaxed, keeping yourself positioned and moving forward. Tell him "good boy" when he's behaving well. Eventually, he get tired of his antics and behave.

If after 3-4 lunge session he hasn't come around, then you need to look at how you handle him the rest of the time. Do you calmly take control 100% of the time, consistently? Do you "allow" certain "cute" behaviors that could possibly escalate into not so cute behaviors? Is he pushy on the lead rope? Is he fidgety during grooming, tacking up, bathing, mounting, etc.? If so, then you need to slowly start to take control, be "calm assertive" as the Dog Whisperer likes to put it, lol. When he's fidgety, lunge him. When he stands still, praise him. If he drags you on the lead rope, walk in circles and figure eights until he calms down. Praise him when he leads nicely. If he's bad about going back to the pasture or stall during feeding him, take him back out to the post and make him stand tied. Once he's calm, try again. If he rushes to his stall, take him back. As soon as he does lead nicely back, praise him and let him eat.

You need to be consistent in how you handle him and he will be consistent in how he acts around you.

One thing that can cause odd behavior is food. If he's getting a high grain diet (more than 1-2 cups of sweet feed), or feed pellets that contain corn, or not enough turn out time and riding to burn off the energy he consumes, then he can end up expressing himself negatively when you do come to exercise him. A change in diet could make a big difference. It certainly can't hurt to try ;).

The route I would have taken first a while back would have been the "whoop that monkey butt" approach. It does work, but the effects aren't always long lasting or consistent. Whenever he turns his butt, crack the whip ON his butt and chase him back out, dominate the inside of the circle by whatever means necessary. While this does express your "authority", it does so through intimidation. That said, sometimes a horse needs a whip across the hiney, and I'm not afraid to use one. But, it's nice if that is a last resort ;).

Thanks! This post was great. :)

As far as his diet goes - I'm not happy with his current feed. It's a local mixture with corn in it. He gets 8-12 hours of turn out, but I will be switching him to something else when we move to the new barn. I think I'll probably go ahead and start making that switch now so he'll be acclimated to it by the time we move...

[Palogal]

I second "control the shoulder" from L2R. Do not allow him to come into your space...and it's ALL your space even the part you let him borrow while he's lunging. You need to practice moving him out of your space. When they do to crowed you it's usually that shoulder that comes in first. If you catch that and move it out you don't end up with the whole horse crowding you. Don't be afraid to "use what you got" and pop that shoulder with a whip if it comes toward you.

If you pop him in the butt you're technically moving him forward but if he's already turning to you pop him in the butt- the point of the cue is lost.

So as I said - control the shoulder.

[WashingtonBay]

When he acts "naughty" keep calm and just keep moving him. Calmly ask for a faster gait or a change in direction. Do something that makes him work just a bit harder than he was before, then let him come back down a bit. Again, stay calm and relaxed, keeping yourself positioned and moving forward. Tell him "good boy" when he's behaving well. Eventually, he get tired of his antics and behave.

Here, I think the key is learning to read the horse. If you have a lazy horse who would rather be standing around or eating then working, who is acting up because he doesn't like being told to do otherwise, then sure... this would work.

If on the other hand, you have a horse who is exuberant and hyper, the key is teaching them to contain direct and control that energy, not express every emotion they feel the moment they feel it. Making Bay move faster when he's chomping to do just that would be giving him life's greatest reward, and you'd better be prepared to let him go fifty miles, because he can, and that's how long his love of antics would last. Of course, the more often he does this, the better shape he's in next time.

Or my pony, who, when she acts up, is stressed out and building up, and if you let it go on, she'll blow like a pressure cooker eventually.

Know your horse ;) With mine, my strategy when they sass is to 'stop' that momentum. Keep it from building up. ACK! No! We don't behave that way! Halt, hard if need be. Make them stand there a moment and recompose. Ok forward now, composed in in control of our emotions. Learn to conserve and direct energy, and express it more appropriately.



When he's fidgety, lunge him. When he stands still, praise him. OK - if the reason you got a horse is to stand still.... but I've always thought this approach was a big lie to the horse. "You only have to work when you're bad. If you're good, we'll stop". So if they're good you never work them hard? I think that's a lie. Work and movement is why we have horses. It's their job. Movement... nice controlled and directed movement, should be rewarding, not a punishment.

My two cents :)

[luvs2ride1979]

Very true WB. My Anglo gelding doesn't respond to the "work more" method. He's got the Arab endurance for sure, and working more just means more fun for him, lol. When he acts up, he gets to walk on the lunge, and keep walking until he's calm. Then we go back to whatever we're going. Harsh words, whips, or making him move more only creates a more hyper and hard to control horse with him. Under saddle, if he acts up, he gets to stand still, or at least stay in one general spot, until he calms down, then we go on. Standing still or walking is the worst punishment for him, lol.

However, changing direction or changing gait can sometimes get his mind off of whatever was bothering him. Trot poles also work wonders to keep him focused in the round pen or on the line. Sometimes I'll even raise the poles, to make little cavelleties. Anything to keep his mind engaged and on the task at hand. I really try to lunge or round pen him as little as possible though. Too much and he ends up too fit!

There are lots of ways to train and work with horses, which is why forums can be so helpful. You can see what works for lots of different folks, then start trying things out until you find one that works ;).

To the Jessica: I would slowly reduce his feed until he's just not getting any for a while. Increase his hay if you can, or buy some hay pellets or hay cubes. After a couple of weeks, bring in a specialty low starch or "lite" feed and give him only the minimum amount recommended on the bag, or buy a vitamin supplement and mix it with hay pellets and a little water.

A diet change REALLY helped my Anglo, who is quite "sensitive" and high strung. He was also a hard keeper before and now keeps his weight on with a lot less food than before. I feed him 20-25 lbs of bermuda grass hay a day, 1.5 lbs of alfalfa pellets, 1/2 cup of milled flax, and a vitamin supplement. He does great on this diet, is even a bit fat right now, lol, and his attitude improved 110%!

Good luck, and stay safe ;).

[elevenelevenxo]

To the Jessica: I would slowly reduce his feed until he's just not getting any for a while. Increase his hay if you can, or buy some hay pellets or hay cubes. After a couple of weeks, bring in a specialty low starch or "lite" feed and give him only the minimum amount recommended on the bag, or buy a vitamin supplement and mix it with hay pellets and a little water.

A diet change REALLY helped my Anglo, who is quite "sensitive" and high strung. He was also a hard keeper before and now keeps his weight on with a lot less food than before. I feed him 20-25 lbs of bermuda grass hay a day, 1.5 lbs of alfalfa pellets, 1/2 cup of milled flax, and a vitamin supplement. He does great on this diet, is even a bit fat right now, lol, and his attitude improved 110%!

Problem with reducing his feed and then not giving him any for a while is we're still putting weight on him as he was quite underweight when he came to me.... I'm trying to find a quality feed that won't make him as hot as the corn does in his current mixture.

[TheRedHayflinger]

hey jess...look into TizWhiz Structure...it's what I had Riot on, as he was a hard keeper, but feed him any type of sweet feed and he was crawling out of his own skin with energy. On this, he not only gained weight, but went back to being my big loveable moose headed loaf.

http://www.tizwhizfeeds.com/products/structure.shtml

[luvs2ride1979]

Problem with reducing his feed and then not giving him any for a while is we're still putting weight on him as he was quite underweight when he came to me.... I'm trying to find a quality feed that won't make him as hot as the corn does in his current mixture.

Ahh gotcha. In that case, I'd go with beet pulp (with no molasses in it), some rice bran or flax meal, and a vitamin supplement. That is a "cool" feed mix that still provides lot of calories and fat.

Start by reducing your current feed to half the amount you're giving him now. Add to that 2-3 cups of shredded beet pulp (soak it for 10-15 minutes first, then drain off the excess water and add the finished "fluffy" product to his grain). Also add 1/4 cup of flax or rice bran. If your budget is tight, corn oil will work too, same amount. Feed this mix for a week.

After a week, stop the grain completely. Measure out 2 lbs dry weight of shredded beet pulp and soak that. Add to it 1/2 cup of your fat source and a general vitamin supplement. Balance II from horse.com is a decent one that's cheap. Keep him on that for 2 weeks or so and see how he does. Adjust things as needed. You can feed up to 1 cup of flax, rice bran, or oil, and up to 5 lbs of shredded beet pulp.

If he won't eat the beet pulp (try it plain first), then you can add a few handfuls of sweet feed or a few peppermints.

You can also add Alfalfa pellets now (after 1-2 weeks on just the beetpulp). 1/2 of a 2qt scoop equals about 1.5 lbs. Just be sure to get the kind with NO animal fat or molasses.

Once he's at a good weight, you can stop the beet pulp and reduce the fat supplement to 1/4-1/2 cup, or stop it entirely. Just keep on with the alfalfa pellets and viatmin supplement. Add a little water if you use powdered vitamins, so they'll stick to the pellets.

I like a natural, forage based diet best. It seems to make the horses more "even" in their temperment, and keep them happy, since they get more hay and feel more full with the hay pellets. They're also less fussy at dinner time.

[WashingtonBay]

luvs.... She just got the horse, they've got him on a diet that will hopefully put weight on him, and she's about to move him to a new place.

IMHO, running on the assumption that we need to redesign his feed, again, based on nothing other than the fact that he feels sassy on the lunge, is premature. We don't know there's anything wrong with the diet, she's just getting to know the horse. Lets give them a couple weeks to get to know each other. We don't even know what normal behavior is for this horse, really.

[FredRock]

I wonder if gaining weight has made him sassier, if he's gained a lot in a short time. I know the more fat a horse has, the more energy, and over a short period of time it could change the horse's temperment until they figure out how to deal with the extra energy. Considering it's winter right now and the seasons are changing soon too, he could be compounding spring feel-good energy and not enough work over the winter. (That's assuming he wasn't regularily worked over winter)

I know in the first few months of owning Cheyenne that her gaining weight to where she needed to be caused a lot of "fun" energy to deal with and work through. Once she levelled out to where work equaled her energy she was fine.

ETA: I agree with WB, it doesn't sound like turning this horse's diet upside down is necessary. It's not only a new horse to her, but it's a change of seasons. Change of seasons, at least at the barn I'm at, affects every horse's energy. Especially when the snow melts and they reach green grass again.

[WashingtonBay]

She's only had him a couple weeks. I'm sure he does have a lot more energy now, on more feed than he was getting before. But that might not be a bad thing, personally I like my horses to have energy, I buy them to move and carry me long distances... they need energy for that!

I don't know what he's eating right now or if it's even what I would do, I just know that every single one of us feeds our horses slightly differently, and throwing all that at a new horse owner who is just figuring out a new horse and sorting out all the options might be a tad overwhelming as the first "gotta do this!" "No - you gotta do this!" thing to do.

I dunno - maybe it's just welcome to the world of internet horse forums. I'm just one more opinion to add to the choir. :)

[luvs2ride1979]

I wasn't aware of that WB. I posted my recommendations based on her original post/questions. I didn't know the background. I guess I need to stop over in the General Interest forum more often... ;)

Even so, if he's been there 2-3 weeks, then he should have settled down by now. A change in feed now, or whenever she moves him, might just help him become more manageable.

I agree, energy is good when you're riding long distances, but not so good when you're trying to slowly build a bond and work in a round pen. Once you really start hitting the trail, then you can worry about not enough energy. ;)

[FredRock]

She's only had him a couple weeks. I'm sure he does have a lot more energy now, on more feed than he was getting before. But that might not be a bad thing, personally I like my horses to have energy, I buy them to move and carry me long distances... they need energy for that!


Oh, not saying it's a bad thing! Just that if there's a huge increase in a short amount of time, it could have a few behavioral problems. My horses have a lack of energy during the summer and too much during the winter when I can't ride, so go figure. :rolleyes:

I agree that everyone feeds their horse differently, and it is definitely confusing when so many things have to change at a time. I'd personally try to deal with it through training and wait to see what he does once he's settled in a new place, you feel more comfortable, and you can try to make a baseline of how he acts. For all anyone knows, this is normal behavior. (like WB said)

[FredRock]

Even so, if he's been there 2-3 weeks, then he should have settled down by now. A change in feed now, or whenever she moves him, might just help him become more manageable.


In 2-3 weeks Fred changed on a dime from what he was when I bought him. I decided to work through it, but I know I could have changed his feed and he'd still have acted like he did. He was feeling me out, testing what he could and couldn't do.

Changing feed isn't going to get that laid down. Although I'll give that there might be something giving him excess energy, but I still think it's change of seasons.

[WashingtonBay]

More info is always good :) My instinct is let's see how it goes, and what the options are going to be in the new place too, before throwing more change at either of them.

[elevenelevenxo]

hey jess...look into TizWhiz Structure...it's what I had Riot on, as he was a hard keeper, but feed him any type of sweet feed and he was crawling out of his own skin with energy. On this, he not only gained weight, but went back to being my big loveable moose headed loaf.

http://www.tizwhizfeeds.com/products/structure.shtml

Yeah, when I go to Marion on Tuesday I'm going to run into Tractor Supply to see if they have it. I know they carry Tiz Whiz. :)

I was also thinking about something like Purina Ultium. I've heard nothing but good things about it...........

[elevenelevenxo]

LOL, ok read the rest of the posts since TheRedHayflingers....Whew, lots to take in.

I do need to be switching his feed. Mainly though, because I'm going to be moving him and buying my own feed, so I kind of have to anyway. I don't want to feed something that's going to make him crazy horse though. :)

I do think part of the issue is the fact that yes, he's got a few more groceries in his belly and is feeling better. Part of it is no doubt the change of seasons. And the last part is that we're a new team and we're both getting used to each other still - we're both testing the waters, so to speak.

From day 1 with him, he's acted like this while longeing. It does seem to have increased a little...which I assume has to do with the fact that he's getting more and more fit as time goes by.

Before assuming though that the type of feed is the ultimate issue, I want to treat it as a behavioral issue and take the steps necessary to improve my horsemanship skills to therefore improve his behavior. :) And I think I've gotten some great recommendations in this thread. The new barn will have better facilities to work him in and I have a feeling things will improve a lot then.

I guess the feed issue is kind of a separate thing right now, since I DO need to change him over to something else for when we move.

[TheRedHayflinger]

I didn't personally like purina feeds when I fed them, but then again, that was me. And I only fed two types and that was a few years ago...they have new stuff out there now, plus the stuff I never used..haha
The TSC here in Chillicothe doesn't carry Structure, but the one in Hillsboro does, so I had to go there to get it when my feed store that was right here in the village stopped being a TizWhiz dealer..Grrrr!

You'll get a lot of chances to talk to different feed reps at Equine Affaire as well...which is pretty good...they are all boosting their product of course, but you can really get a good compare section to look at too.

[TheRedHayflinger]

I'll send my nutrition book from college home with you when you come down on Wednesday. It's pretty easy to understand and has lots of good info in it. You can just return it when you are done with it...I loan it out to a lot of people...just got it back a couple of months ago from a friend who had it the better part of a year..LOL

[elevenelevenxo]

Heather, I'd really appreciate being able to borrow that book!!!

[Dakota Sunrise]

I haven't lunged Beauty since November, but if spring ever comes for real I plan to start again. I'm sure it will go just lovely.:innocent:

Anyway, she sometimes acts like that when I'm lunging her too. Like with the horse you're talking about, the lunge whip has little effect on her (of course I never hit her with it, but still.) She has turned her butt at me and kicked out before, bucked, and also reared up a few times when I asked her to move out when she was being a total brat. I basically freaked out on her, yelled like a madwoman, swung the whip, and drove her forward. I made her work extra hard for a few laps until I got it out of her system. She still did it occasionally after that (and probably will again this spring until I get her retrained for lunging), but at least I made it very clear that it was not acceptable behavior.

She also has issues with moving out sometimes, like refusing to trot or canter when asked. The only way I've found so far to get her butt moving (when she's being really stubborn, I mean. Not an all-the-time thing.) is to yell "Can-terrrrr!" very firmly, and smack the ground with the lunge whip. She usually kicks out when I do that, but it gets her moving, and I'll drive her on hard until she starts behaving herself.

She definately needs work on her lunging (I just just started teaching it to her over the summer), but I *think* I'm handling her bratty moments correctly.
If I were you, I would put a lunge line on Rebel if it was possible, and react the same way I do with Beauty when he kicks out, etc. Just my opinion.:) Good luck.

[elevenelevenxo]

Dakota, that's really similar to what I have been doing with him. :) And like your girl, when I get after him and smack the ground with the whip, etc., that's usually when he pulls some of the moves I was talking about.

[WashingtonBay]

Well, I'm not one for big huge empty threats... if you're doing big huge things with the whip, I'd expect the horse to react in a big huge way ;) You lose your composure, horse loses hers/his.

I flick it toward them and tell them what I want. If they don't do it, I flick them with it. Strongly, confidently, insistently. I don't do big empty threats. I also rarely have to make contact. But they know I will.

[Palogal]

Speak softly and carry a big stick....it applies here too. Never make a threat you can't follow through on and never punish more than necessary. Use as much force as necessary but only enough and only for as long as necessary. Also imply the correction before you have to use it. If you imply you're correcting (point the whip at the shoulder) and the horse ignores it...then pop them with it as hard as necessary. With your guy who's kind of on a high horse I would use the whip with a good zing. He's not one that's shy or afraid he's disrespectful.

[elevenelevenxo]

Thanks guys.

I do have my trainer to help me with my questions, but unfortunately right now I'm having to take a break from lessons and I haven't been able to catch her at the barn. She was just laid off the other day too, so I don't want to try to mooch free advice from her right now....she's selling her FreisianX gelding and I know she's stressed right now, so I'm trying to do what I can on my own, hence the onslaught of questions right now. :) I'm learning...

[Dakota Sunrise]

Well, I'm not one for big huge empty threats... if you're doing big huge things with the whip, I'd expect the horse to react in a big huge way ;) You lose your composure, horse loses hers/his.

I flick it toward them and tell them what I want. If they don't do it, I flick them with it. Strongly, confidently, insistently. I don't do big empty threats. I also rarely have to make contact. But they know I will.

That's very true, and it takes quite a while for me to freak out on her and become the evil kid with the whip.:p
First I ask, then I tell, then I demand, and then I turn into the crazy kid.:innocent: Perhaps not the best way to handle it, but I ran out of ideas.

I've never ever hit her with the whip, not even flicked her. I don't know how she'd react... She's so sensitive about things like that, I don't want to hurt her.

My way does work, at least for the particular moment it gets her back on track. But I wish I could figure out something that was more long-term so she'd cut it out all together. But that was a while ago, I don't know what she'll act like now. Who knows, maybe she'll be a perfect angel when I start lunging her again this spring!:D ......or maybe not.:innocent: lol

[WashingtonBay]

You aren't going to 'hurt' her. Now... it is possible to lose control of her if you whip her into a dead run and don't quit, but you aren't going to hurt her.

Who do you think looks more commanding.... the person standing straight up, using dominant but controlled voice and movements, or the one yelling and smacking the ground? Eventually, horses learn that yelling and smacking the ground, too, is an empty threat and they can ignore it. That's why people do these things to 'desensitize' horses.

[Dakota Sunrise]

That's why people do these things to 'desensitize' horses.


hmm, good point. I never thought of that before.

The problem is that when she's being really stubborn (not all the time, just when she's in one of her 'mare moods':rolleyes:) she completely ignores my dominant, controlled voice/moves, etc. I guess I'm just not all that scary.:p
I may have to try tapping her with the whip as the next step if all else fails. Hopefully that will get her attention and she won't think of it as an empty threat.

[WashingtonBay]

Well, if she ignores it, snap her one. Without an ounce of guilt. She'll listen a lot better if you mean what you say :) Seriously.... I rarely have to do more than lift the whip and gesture with it.... because the few times I have, it's meant something. In the long run, I think it's a lot easier than confusing them with a lot of threats.

[elevenelevenxo]

Just wanted to post an update on this topic.

I was finally able to get out to the barn today and work with him, so I hooked the line up to him (unfortunately just his halter....I'd like to get a longeing cavesson as soon as I can) and we did a bit of walking and trotting both ways. He was good! He did do his little kicking fit and tried bucking a few times, but a firm "NO REBEL" and a bite of the whip on his bum made him quit and act like a gentleman. He really is a smart boy.

Had a bit of confusion at the end, which was my fault. I fumbled with the line and accidently moved the whip wrong, which sent mixed signals to him. Got it together though and ended on a good note. :)

NOW - how do I teach him "whoa"?? He needs to learn this both on the longe line and undersaddle. Undersaddle I have to really brace for him to stop. I'd like to get to the point where all I have to do is shift my weight and ask him to "whoa." On the ground, leading him he listens just fine. Stops, goes, etc...all like he should. On the line, he didn't want to "whoa" and when he did, I think it was more coincidence than anything.

Advice for that?

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the help. He was MUCH more behaved on the line than the free-longeing. I think we'll do it this way from now on. Still can't wait for the new barn.....the arena will be much better to work in....

[WashingtonBay]

I teach woah by saying it strongly, one time. WOAH! Then give increasing line corrections until they come to a full stop, repeating the word strongly and only sparingly if and when you think it needs repeating for him to remember and learn the lesson. In other words. Make WOAH mean something by not burying it in a lot of chatter: "Whoa, Rebel comeon now easy woooooooaaaah easy". "Woah". No..... say "WOAH!" And only "Woah!". And only use woah when you want a full stop, every time. And don't stop correcting till you get it. If you want 'slow down' or 'stop that' or a simple change of gait from canter to trot, then use different words. Woah means hit the brakes. Every time.

And when he does, go to him and praise. Every time. At first on the line, he may even end up coming in a bit or facing you when you say woah. That's OK IMHO. No real way to prevent it without long lines. The important thing is an abrupt response on his part, then try to perfect and finesse it as you go. But start out with one loud WOAH! and immediate and increasing line corrections till he does.

[elevenelevenxo]

Thanks WB, that's really helpful.

[WashingtonBay]

Helps too, when training, to ask at a time when they are most likely to want to stop... Ask well, when they're looking a bit tired, not when they have bolted because of an unexpected noise... that's a time for 'eeeeeasy'. If you blurt out WOAH even accidentally.... you have to enforce it.

[FredRock]

Does he know the word "whoah" at all, or anything to stop? I had to start with Cheyenne in hand, walking around and stopping and saying 'whoah' like I do whenever I ask. Then I taught it while trotting in-hand for a while, and finally on the lunge line. It took a while, but she got it eventually. I think I would have had a lot of trouble otherwise, but I also had to teach her how to just lunge, so it might be easier if he knows how to lunge on a line already. Like WB said, each gait or slow down should have a different noise/word, and "whoah" should be distinct.

I would reccomend not free lunging him for a while, especially if he's always been like this. Build your relationship on the ground with something that can control him easier, and then slowly take them away.