Old man down. . .again. . .

[Equine_Woman]

So today I got home from picking Wyatt up at school and I watch Mack lay down in an area that is relatively flat (as flat as it gets in that part of the pasture) and kinda smushy because there had been an old hay bale there in the past. I made a note of it and decided to come back in a little while to check on him.

About an hour 1/2 later I went back out there and he was still there but I could hear him groaning a bit. . .

(Just a quick refresher, Mack is our 23-24 year old Trakehner gelding with arthritis)

So I go out to the pasture and he is sweating on the side near the ground and isn't really trying very good to get up. Every now and then he acts like he wants up but he isn't moving his front legs. So I tried to put a halter on him but it was impossible due to the way he was laying. . . I get a bit panicky but that subsided and i went for a whip. That didn't work either (didn't hit him, just made noise). It appeared as if the hay was too slippery for him to get up. . .

So as I'm standing there contemplating 911 (lol, they rescue cats right?) He tries one more time with no success. I decide to pop him on the butt with the lead rope and he tries harder. . . so again I pop him and he finally hauls himself up and trots off. . .

Now about 3 hours later he is doing okay (as in not colicky at all) but his side is sore and his eye is swollen (I assume it got poked in the hay as he was struggling. . .).

What am I going to do with this horse? I can't go out and force him up every day! He is on MSM and it helped a ton (as in he is trotting around and even breaks into a canter a little). We've tried chondroiton and glucosamine and it didn't really make much difference in him, at least no more than the msm. I'm going to ask my vet when he gets his annuals but I just thought I'd bring it up here too. . . He can't ever be left in a stall because he'd cast himself!!! My poor old man.

Sigh. Thanks for listening. I'm going to go give him 2 grams of bute for the night. I'm sure his eye is hurting too. . .

[WashingtonBay]

I would give him Bute every day for a week. THEN you will know how good he can be. From then on, you can see what kind of maintenance dose (every other day, 2 times a week, etc) might keep him there.

If you give it on a full stomach and he's eating well and turned out with good access to forage, your risks from this kind of maintenance routine are minimal, IMHO, and the results in terms of quality of life may be great. You can't know till you try :)

[All4Grace]

*hugs*


Good luck I'll be thinking of Ole Mack.

*hugs*

[Equine_Woman]

I would give him Bute every day for a week. THEN you will know how good he can be. From then on, you can see what kind of maintenance dose (every other day, 2 times a week, etc) might keep him there.

If you give it on a full stomach and he's eating well and turned out with good access to forage, your risks from this kind of maintenance routine are minimal, IMHO, and the results in terms of quality of life may be great. You can't know till you try :)

2 grams once a day or 2 grams twice a day? It is a good idea.

[mandascrazycowboy]

This is what they used at the college my fiancee went to she says its really really good.
http://www.platinumperformance.com/animal/equine/

[mandascrazycowboy]

or you might want to try this stuff. Majesty's Flex - An easy to feed joint supplement with MSM, glucosamine, yucca, chondroitin and ascorbic acid rolled into a delicious treat.
its alot cheaper

[cyb]

2 grams once a day or 2 grams twice a day? It is a good idea.
I think 2 grams once a day is the max you can give them in a day, I may be wrong.

[WashingtonBay]

2 grams once a day or 2 grams twice a day? It is a good idea.

Discuss it with your vet, but I'd say once a day. 2g total a day, for a week. This will reduce inflammation that is there, old, and chronic. Then evaluate whether to continue a little longer with that or reduce it to some lower maintenance dose, based on how he's doing.

[mandascrazycowboy]

Have you ever tried B-L solution? Its like bute but wont effect his liver it can be used for an extended period of time

[WashingtonBay]

well crazycowboy... My opinion is that supplements and herbal remedies may or may not help, but known, proven medicines most certainly will. I trust them more than herbals which are unregulated and unproven.

And ~everything~ goes through the liver. The long term effects, if any, of herbals is just not documented. You just don't know.

[CrazyManda]

Here's what I found about B-L Solution:
The Horse Journal's Two-Time #1 ranked natural pain relief formula! The Horse Journal proved a serving of B-L Solution is equal to 1.5 - 2.0 gms of Phenylbutazone, with a cost-to-benefit ratio that is unbeatable. No side effects with B-L Solution.
I got that info from JeffersEquine.com

When Chanti's hoof had a really bad crack in it I put her on Majesty's Biotin wafers and her crack was gone within 2 months when the farrier said it'd take a whole year. I think Majesty's would be worth checking for the joint issues.

[Suzi]

Sorry to hear abt his troubles. I love to try herbals and such, but I agree with WB, use the meds. There are ways to help prevent any stomach ulcers. If you aren't there to help him up one day, he could lay for hours leading to colic, or worse injuries trying to get up.

[WashingtonBay]

Here's what I found about B-L Solution:
The Horse Journal's Two-Time #1 ranked natural pain relief formula! The Horse Journal proved a serving of B-L Solution is equal to 1.5 - 2.0 gms of Phenylbutazone, with a cost-to-benefit ratio that is unbeatable. No side effects with B-L Solution.
I got that info from JeffersEquine.com

When Chanti's hoof had a really bad crack in it I put her on Majesty's Biotin wafers and her crack was gone within 2 months when the farrier said it'd take a whole year. I think Majesty's would be worth checking for the joint issues.

Again, out of deference to those who like to try herbals, I won't insult them, but they are largely unstudied, undocumented and unproven.

Bute, on the other hand, is the most tried and tested anti-inflammatory on the market.

My opinion is that this horse is beyond mere herbals. This horse could use a shot at real medicine or one of these times, he's not going to be able to get up.

[Gypsy Rose]

I'd say start with the bute, but then see if the B-L solution, pellets or paste would help. I know B-L has done wonders for Gypsy when she overdoes it - she has radial nerve damage in her shoulder, and if she runs too much or moves wrong, the soulder can swell up considerably. B-L has always taken the swelling down within 24-48 hours, though it takes a little longer before she's completely back to normal, depending on the severity of the swelling.

I'd say the B-L is safer long term, but that said, nothing- prescription or herbal- is totally safe and without risk of side effects. I would not feed B-L to a horse that has or is suspected to have ulcers, and don't feed it to pregnant mares. The devil's claw in it can cause abortion.

[jeezitsjacki]

I dont really have any advice but I hope he starts feeling better soon and you find a solution

[offgridgirl]

I second or third the recommendation for Bute for a week and see how his quality of life improves. Get vet advise and then make an informed decision!! Good luck!!

[Equine_Woman]

We've been on B-L Solution before and it helps but it didn't make much of a difference. The MSM helped a lot more than it. . . I started the bute tonight. I'll pick some more up tomorrow at the vet and give it a go. Wish they had rimadyl for horses. lol. My Mastiff has a torn cruciate ligament and is on that stuff and you wouldn't even know she was hurting.

Mack is on to me with the bute. He smelled it before I even touched him and it took me 5 minutes to get a halter on him. .lol. . .something says he's been on bute a lot in his life!

[WashingtonBay]

Bute's bitter... they always hate it. What are you giving? Tube or pills? The pills are cheapest, by the bottle. I mash them and dilute them in a syringe with gatorade or some kind of punch. That seems to be the least offensive in my experience :) But some use applesauce. Might be good too, just messier.

And bute and Rimadyl are not all that different. They're both non-steroidal Anti-Inflammatories.

[FatSpottedAppy]

Ahh.. I am so sorry EW. Sounds rough.. :( I hope you find a solution.

[42many]

Do the bute powder - it is AWESOME and when I bought it was about the same price as pills. I always used to use the pills and crush them up, etc, but once I started using the powder I won't go back :). It is flavored, so several of mine (including my picky old TB, who actually needs it periodically) don't even need a mixture - just mix into the grain. Even if they still don't like the flavor (which my old ArabX doesn't unless I mix a little bute with a TON of grain) it is still way easier to feed. I used to have to plan in advance to use bute so I could prepare it - now I just throw it in whenever I think someone needs it!

For Majesty Flex wafers - I do very much like these as supplement, but I recommend getting the one with HA if you do go with them (since your guy is older and already having problems). I have used both (2 diff horses) and the HA definitely is better - but twice as expensive! The regular flex wafers are fine if there isn't much of an issue, but I need to switch my old guy onto the HA soon.

[cloedoll]

I no nothing, but what WashingtonBay is saying makes a lot of sense to me and well, she has me convinced! I'd definitely give it a shot. I'll be thinking about you and your old man, I hope things get better. *hugs*

[Equine_Woman]

I'm giving him paste right now, because that's all I have on hand. He definitely saw me coming. . . .lol. I'll look into the bute powder. I'm pretty bad about crushing pills. I HATE it. lol. Had to do it for a long time in my life and learned to dread it. . . He eats a ton (around 14 lbs a day) so I can mix the powder into his rice bran and water and make a bute powder/bran paste. . lol. Otherwise he's going to start running from me everytime he seems me!!

[valleyrider]

Sorry to hear that Mack is not well. I hope you find a way to make him feel better soon..

[WashingtonBay]

The powder sounds like a good thing, if they really like it. Bay's pretty finicky about things I've snuck into grain before, I'm not sure he'd go for it, but skipping the pill mashing step would be a very good thing if I was giving it regularly! I should ask for it... I usually buy the pills out of habit, and I have a big bottle. Have to remember next time.

:)

[Equine_Woman]

Oh but this is bringing back memories of making antibiotic mixes for all the babies at the breeding farms. . . we had a bad round of rhino go through so all the foals had to have medicine and we made it with honey!!! Hadn't thought about that in YEARS! lol

[WashingtonBay]

Ack - honey would be sticky! What a mess!

[Equine_Woman]

Yeah it was YUCKY! Because we had a lot of meds to give and the honey always would overfill and get over everything. . . . blah!!! But it was the only way they would eat it. .

Good times.

[WashingtonBay]

I did pills, mashed, with molasses and water for a lot of years... and even that's sticky. One time I was out of molasses and used some juice or gatorade that was in the fridge, and thought wow... that was a lot better... less mess, dissolves the pills easy, and the horse seemed to make less blechy gestures afterwards like it was just swallowed and gone instead of stuck all over his mouth. So that's what I use now.

[TBgirl]

Oh I'm so sorry to hear about poor Mack! I can't offer advice...I'm trying to learn more about horse health issues/etc. I too agree that what WB is saying makes sense! Best of luck with him!!

[42many]

I used to use syrup - sticky, but easy to pour! :)

[Equine_Woman]

That's what it was!! Syrup!! Lol, not hunny!! It was sticky and I smelled like maple all day long. .

[Diane of Buck's Hollow]

Aw...poor Mack. Give him a big ole hug for me!!!:)

[Equine_Woman]

Well we went to the vet this morning and he agrees we should try him on long term bute. 1 gram a day. . . with a loading dose of 2 grams for 5 days. So here is hoping!!! He said to give him some aloe vera juice every once in a while to keep him from getting ulcers. . Also if the bute doesn't do it he said we could do some radiographs of his hocks and hips and see if we can pin point and inject. . . but we'll start out with just bute. . .

Very similar to my dog's treatment for the cruciate ligament. . .

[WashingtonBay]

Good luck with that... and report back!

[Tiz]

Walmart sells aloe vera juice in the pharmacy area. $7 or $8 for a gallon.

[Arrow]

Looking forward to updates--hope he feels better soon.

[Remali]

Hope he is doing better. I know that Bute will help with the pain, but like so many others I agree about the risks that go with long-term bute. The B-L solution sounds very good too, altho you did say you have tried that already, I guess that would just be a more safe choice, in my opinion, and not so hard on the liver and stomach lining.

[FredRock]

Have you tried Cosequin for a supplement? Just wondering, because my QH has artritis pretty bad, and when he's on Cosequin he doesn't even need shots for it. Before Cosequin we used other stuff and shots and he was still in discomfort. There's different variations of it too; I think there's one that has MSM in it. (Fred's on the original stuff on actually half the "suggested" amount)

Otherwise, I agree with WB on the bute. It might be the only thing left for you to try. Definitely talk to your vet first, though. But I'd guess long-term buting risks don't outweigh getting stuck laying down. Poor old man.

ETA: Glad to hear you talked to your vet. Sounds like a good plan, I hope it works out for him!

[Equine_Woman]

Good luck with that... and report back!

Wouldn't it be great if Mack does as well as Piper has with her treatment!!! I would love to see him able to canter under saddle again. . . . or just act like a young un every now and then!!!

Thanks Tiz! I had figured Walmart had it, wasn't sure where though. . .lol. I'll pick some up this evening.

Our vet mentioned that we could also do ulcer guard if the bute helps and he has any issues. . I know that's expensive but it might be worth it. Just another part of how free horses are NOT free. lol. But he's worth it all.

We haven't tried Cosequin mostly because of the cost. If bute doesn't work we might try something like that next. . . depending on what our vet says.

[FredRock]

We haven't tried Cosequin mostly because of the cost. If bute doesn't work we might try something like that next. . . depending on what our vet says.

I don't blame you. I tried to find some other stuff after finding out how much Cosequin was, but he was unberable. Switched to Cosequin and no more problems. :) I am kind of under-dosing him though; hoping that all it takes is another scoop if he starts to get problems again. I do hope the Bute works for you though, it would stink if it doesn't.

[Tiz]

We had an old guy that had broken his knee as a younger horse. He was all crippled up, in his twenties, when we found him at the auction. In his day, he had been one of the leading Thoroughbred sires in Oregon, but that day we paid $275 for him and took him to his last home.
He got to the point that my husband left work every couple of hours to check on him, and help him up if he got stuck. Through it all, his attitude never faltered, and his expression was always bright and interested. Classy old horse.
He got bute every day that we had him. It's a matter of choosing the lesser of two problems. I think as long as they graze, or have hay to eat all the time, it's not going to hurt them as much as joints and muscles that don't want to work anymore.
Good luck, EW, I know how these old guys get in your heart.

[Equine_Woman]

Aww what a story Tiz. Mack's could be similar. He was a dressage champ in his youth, or so we've been told. He's rock solid. When I got him he was just bones. He quickly made his way into my heart and I'm very thankful he came my way. Now he's my safe husband horse that is bomb proof and worth his weight in gold. He has that bright expression in his eye and I can always feel that naughty boy youngster just under the surface!! lol