Can I NEVER win? - Update page 5 - vet visit

[FatSpottedAppy]

I am so upset right now.

When I went to see Soco for the first time when I was looking for a barrel horse, I was out to ride both him and Bear. But I got there and Soco was limping, so I couldn't ride him. His owner/s were saying how they're not sure why he's doing it, nothing looked wrong, he must've stubbed his foot, etc. So I couldn't ride Soco that day and had to stick to trying out Bear who was too old for what I was looking for.

Tried out a few more horses, and then eventually went back a few weeks to give Soco another chance. No limp that day, he was sound. I was ecstatic, really liked the horse, and decided to buy him.

Without a vet check, of course. Shame on me. The people who were selling him we think/thought are VERY reliable sellers, everyone supposedly looks up to that family and has good things to say about them. I thought just that one day was a bad day for Soc.

Well, I've noticed ever since I got him that he moved his back legs weird. The first time in the pasture he would randomly pick up his back leg and hold it there for a second and then kick it, sometimes he just holds his back leg up for a few seconds(switches between the two). He is constantly resting one of his back legs, even when I go to pick up one of his front legs. He is reluctant to lope and gallop in the pasture(He has before, just not much, and I've only seen him full out run in the pasture twice), and will only trot in hand with me sometimes.

Now today he is randomly limping on his left front. I have no idea why, he has been out in the pasture with his just his buddy(I have never seen them get moody with each other, but I know I'm not there 24/7) for a week. I haven't ridden him in a bit due to the weather.

His hooves need to be done, the farrier is coming out the 17th(Couldn't get him out sooner), and if that doesn't make a difference then the vet is coming out after wards.



Now, as a little shard of background information, Soco was bought by their family when he was 3 and has been competed in barrels since then. I figure being competed that young probably would have an effect on him now, right...? They were selling him because he was "slowing down." He is 12.

Any thoughts? Comments?

http://i40.tinypic.com/jtrnme.jpg

Please Note: Soco came to me with his hooves in this condition, I just got him last month and the farrier hasn't been available.

[FredRock]

Hindsight is 20-20, don't bother beating yourself up over no vet check now; it's already too late to go back and change it. Just know to do it next time-no matter what the seller's reputation is.

Is there heat or swelling? Does it seem stiff when he moves it, or is it just when he takes a step? Is he reluctant to put weight on it? Does he ever seem 'slower' when the weather is cold and damp out? Does he seem to have trouble on harder footing like gravel or frozen ground?

ETA: It sounds like he has arthritus. I missed the back legs part somehow, but my Gelding is always resting one back leg, even when I try to pick feet. He's not reluctant to canter much anymore, but before we got hiom x-rayed and diagnosed with arthritus he didn't want to do anything above a walk. He has it in both back legs. Never heard about the odd kicking thing though

[HeartofSteel]

You mentioned him holding his legs up. When you ask him to back up does his hind legs kinda stick when he picks them up? It could be just one hind leg also. When you pick up his back feet does he stick at all?

[Kaitlyn]

Oh my he needs a trim! It looks like the feet of an OTTB! Holy moly. I hope it's not arthritis, shoulda had a vet check! :nono: But I'm also very OCD and everything has to be perfect before I purchase anything.

[oursarge]

I'm really sorry, I hope he'll be OK, it is muddy there? Maybe he twisted something in the mud. He's such a cutie. It is so hard to buy a horse from anyone, you just have to hope they are telling you the truth and so many don't. I was thinking about you the other day, Sue got a pony from New Holland, this thing is so fast, it must have done barrels at some point. It runs but then settles right down. It's too small though, nothing you would have been interested in plus he's just a brown pony, nothing flashy but he's quick! I mentioned to her we should list him on Horstopia, not sure what she wants to do since her daughter wants to keep him for a barrel pony. He needs manners, he's a little fresh but they'll have that fixed in no time. I think he'll make a good pony for someone, wish I liked to go fast I'd buy him, he's adorable, he's so chunky it's a wonder he can move as quick as he does but he goes like a shot.

I truly hope Soco will be fine with his feet done and anything else that needs doing. Have you had him vet checked since you got him home? Might be a good idea just to make sure there isn't something going on with him and if you run him you don't hurt him more. Good luck, it truly is hard to find a horse without issues.

[Cat]

I'm so sorry to hear this. Yes - no beating yourself up now for what is already done, but next time make sure you get a vet check.

His feet are in bad need of a trim and with long toes like that - he could have easily stressed one of this tendons. Hopefully a good trim will help the issue. You will also probably want a vet out to check him over because maybe its something that can be fixed or managed.

[Miracle Whip]

His pasterns should NOT be that sloped, the angle is wrong. You need to get a good farrier to evaluate his stance. The way he is standing now, that has to be putting major stress on his pasterns, no wonder he is resting his feet!!!!!

[Flair]

Soco's a Quarter Horse right?

What kind of a diet is he getting? Lots of starches and sugars?

Based off what you said about the horse kicking a leg out, and having a hind foot at rest a lot, I'd kind of wonder if he didn't have PSSM. It's the same thing as EPSM (Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy), but the vet that diagnosed it mainly in draft horses called it EPSM while the vet who dignosed it in Quarter Horses called it PSSM. It's a condition where horses have difficulty converting glycogen (sugars) into muscle energy, so they store it up, and it affects the muscles. (I'm not quite sure if I'm explaining it properly, but that's the general gist of it)

Horses with EPSM or are suspected of having EPSM are supposed to be on a high fat/low starch diet. I've been doing a lot of reading about it because being draft ponies, Haflingers are supposedly subseptible. Some of the symptoms include a reluctance to canter, and a tendency to hold the hind legs up more often. I'm not sure if it affects the front legs. There's a diet they suggest should be followed for a while.

http://www.smartpakequine.com/EPSM.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_polysaccharide_storage_myopathy
http://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/epsm.htm

It might not be your problem, but it'd be something to talk to the vet about. There's a blood test and a DNA hair test.

[Joey A]

If you're using the same farrier that shod him last, and it is a foot problem, it's unlikely that you will see much if any improvement.

Hind feet show evidence of hock problems and bullnosing commonly indicative of negative palmer angle coffin bones. (they tend to go hand in hand)

Soco was bought by their family when he was 3 and has been competed in barrels since then.

That says a lot. Have the hocks and hind feet x-rayed. From what you're describing, shifting weight and hold his feet up, and the visible evidence, he's getting ready to take a long ride off a short pier if there isn't some sort of intervention.

Feet are in overall poor balance from what I can see here. It's not just a matter of being overdue a week or two it's a long term balance issue. Some serious changes need to be made all around.

[Joey A]

His pasterns should NOT be that sloped, the angle is wrong. You need to get a good farrier to evaluate his stance. The way he is standing now, that has to be putting major stress on his pasterns, no wonder he is resting his feet!!!!!

It's lower than ideal for a can chaser, but there's nothing "wrong" with his pastern angles, you can't change conformation.

Honestly that's not even that low.

The long pasterns does overload the back of the foot and made him predisposed to neg-palmer angles, which would very quickly cause a hock problem.

[Miracle Whip]

Thanks Walkin - you could say it better than I.

[JackieB]

Sorry, FSA. I'm sure this is very frustrating. You can't really know for sure what's wrong without x-rays. They are expensive, but will identify the problem and then you can get better advice on where to go from there.

[Ryle]

You really need to have a good vet exam on this guy. First because the action you describe on the hind legs is indicative of some sort of problem. Whether it's pain, a muscle disorder like EPSM or something like stringhalt only your vet can tell you after a thorough exam.

I have to say that I agree with the concern over the toe length and the angles.

[Joey A]

You really need to have a good vet exam on this guy.

Yeah, I wouldn't mess around waiting. Re-reading my original post I wasn't very clear about that. Call your vet out, in his current condition it's very possible that there's some very serious issues going on. If this is a precursor to a founder episode, he's gonna be in for it baaad.

[AUEquine]

We learned a similar lesson last year. We bought a horse we've known, and been watching him run for a few years. He was in his teens but was a great barrel horse, and even a sweet trail horse. When we first got him the owner said he was a little lame from his shoeing job. His feet were the worst I've ever seen, the guy put two different size shoes on. So we took her word for it, pulled his shoes and started working on fixing his feet. Well months went by and he was still lame, even though his feet looked great. We checked and checked for abscesses, and then finally broke down and called the vet. Turns out he has ringbone. Then we find out from another person that the previous owner had known this horse had been lame for sometime, still ran him (we always wondered why she got off and led him back to the trailer, just thought she was afraid), and she still offered him for sale without any mention of his lameness using the farrier as an excuse. After everyone in the association (NBHA and IBRA) heard the story we haven't seen her at a race in a while!
Luckly, with a diagnosis we were able to work with him. With some proper shoeing and meds/supplements he's sound to run. And now has a nice forever home with a little girl.

But we learned a hard, long and expensive lesson... never take a sellers word for it. Especially when it comes to lameness issues.

[FatSpottedAppy]

Thanks everyone..

Mom is going to call the vet out to look him over (I am not positive on when, but very soon) and our farrier is coming out Tuesday to trim all of the horses. Soco has had shoes(all four) on for a long time now, since at least November when I went to see him for the first time. I thought they would've gotten the farrier out to trim, and now I'm questioning why such "reputable" people couldn't keep their horses hooves UTD. :(

He was sold to us as totally sound, and that the first time I went out to see him they didn't know what was wrong, that maybe he just stubbed his hoof. That's why I turned away from him in the first place but something just nagged me to go look at him again.. lo and behold I bought him.
Someone said that they might've just loaded him up on something the day I went to see him and he was perfect, another person thinks maybe he just hurt himself in the pasture mud or it's just the overgrown hooves that are causing the limp.. so many different possibilities.

Before the limp he was totally fine, he backed up nicely, turned nicely, lifted his hooves without a problem. Kicking his back legs and randomly lifting them isn't an everyday thing, but it happened once in a while-- not as of late, but again, I'm not there watching 24/7. When I let him run in the pasture with Prodigy(about a week ago) again, he was running like crazy and bucking/rearing.. Eventually took Prodigy out and replaced him with his buddy Bear. A few days after wards this happens.

What can I do for now to keep him comfortable until the farrier comes? Right now he's in his stall with his hooves picked and clean. He is standing normal, just has that one leg stretched out in front of him. No swelling or heat in the leg or hoof.

[oursarge]

Poor baby, I feel so bad for him and for you. Can you check with the vet to see if you can give him Bute if he's in pain?

It's hard to say what has happened, maybe the people loaded him up on Bute, maybe he was fine. The way the mud is here if they get running it's so easy to twist something. That happened to my Dommie. We had a bear go through, he freaked and he got a sprain. I know that's not a sprain but still the mud is easy to get hurt with. It sucks the boots right off of a person's feet so it can't be great for the horses either. Maybe all that running did something to him.

I guess right now you have to look ahead and not back, if they did do something wrong well then at some point you can maybe talk to them about it. It boggles my mind why someone would sell a horse with a problem to someone they know wants to barrel race. We can only hope that they didn't know and are not that mean and dishonest. Anyway don't look back. You love your boy and hopefully you can get him all fixed up with a trim, shoes, X-rays and he'll be ready to run barrels just like you dreamed. Give him a hug and look ahead to better days when he's fine.

[Country Girl 43]

I am so sorry you have to go through this... :(

[elevenelevenxo]

((hugs)) No advice, but I hope your vet can provide some answers.

[FatSpottedAppy]

Thanks guys. :(

He has improved today, not tremendously but a fair bit. He is not limping as bad as he was yesterday and he isn't extending his hurt leg out as far as he was yesterday. I soaked his leg in a bucket of cold cold water both yesterday and today. Annie, that is what Mom is thinking.. that he might've hurt himself in the slop. I hope that's just it. Even if he does get better with the trim we're still having the vet come out to do a soundness check..

[oursarge]

Hugs to him, a vet check is a good idea, I am so hoping it's just the miserable mud. It's so easy to get a sprain or something when they are running in it, it's deep and it's slippery. Glad he's doing a little better today.

[cloedoll]

Personally and I'm no expert, but I wouldn't freak out just yet. His feet are in very poor condition atm (as you know) and that could be making him lame, from being so unbalanced. It might not be something major, it might just be he needs a good trim..

**big hugs**

[WP~Paint]

I'm sorry to hear you have to go through this. I do know a good trim can do wonders. The barn I last boarded at had not had my horse's feet done for like 6 months. My horse had had them done before I moved him and he was due but they said that (they sat on an old brick factory) the old brick pieces helped keep their hooves trimmed down. They did not have my horse's feed done when the farrier came out and as soon as I had them done, he was a different horse. He was a total pain to ride and all, and after a nice trim, he was fine. I hope it is something that is easy to fix. He sure is a cutie pie. Good luck in finding out what it is!

[42many]

I would make sure to keep him relatively sedate - no encouraging running around with Prodigy until this is all resolved! He can do himself some serious harm just running around if things aren't right in the legs/feet.

Are you going to try and return him to the seller? Have you talked with them about the fact that the horse has severe on-going lameness issues and discussed with them what will happen if/when a vet and farrier evaluation reveal that this is something he's had for awhile? Or are you going to keep him regardless and do the best you can by him?

[FatSpottedAppy]

He has been in a stall since he started limping and has been greatly improving over the last couple of days.. He is putting full weight on the lame leg. There will definitely be no running around with the other horses for a bit. The vet should be coming out the beginning of next month to geld Prodigy and we will get a soundness exam on him then..

As for what I'm going to do with him if this is something serious.. If the old owners wont take him back, I am going to keep him and do the best I possibly can to keep him comfortable. I always feel terrible when I sell horses and he deserves to be well taken care of after all he's given to people. :)

With the rapid improvement, though, I don't think it is as serious as I thought but I still don't want to take any chances. If he does happen to have arthritis I'll be disappointed.. But I can just keep him on a supplement I suppose.

[FatSpottedAppy]

Soco lost his limp. :)

He's not limping anymore, but he's staying in his stall for precautions. Farrier came today and took off his shoes(first time he has had them off since November) and trimmed him up. Suggested we get pads for his hooves since they're extremely flat.. also said it will take a few more sessions before his hooves are back to normal. Unfortunately I wasn't there so I don't know everything he said.

http://i39.tinypic.com/zl25d.jpg

[cloedoll]

Yay! That's great news Morgan. My fingers are crossed it is nothing serious and was just that he needed a trim.

[Annie&Dixie]

Great news!!

[Joey A]

I'm glad to hear he's more comfortable, but you aren't cancelling your vet appt are you?

Did the farrier know about the limp? Did he check the feet with testers at all?

[FatSpottedAppy]

Oh no, we're still having the vet out to do a soundness check on him for sure, however it wont be until the beginning of next month as that's when she's coming out anyway to geld Prodigy. Mom will have her come out sooner if he begins to go downhill again.

The farrier did know of the limp and as far as I know didn't test his hooves.


Thanks everyone.. it's definitely a relief, but I'm not getting my hopes too high just yet.

[Joey A]

I'm glad to hear you're keeping your appt. Without pictures of his front feet I really wouldn't know where to start. (but I'd bet 10-1, I have an idea where to start looking)

The hinds, I'd still be looking for more signs of negative palmer angles. I'd make a point to ask your vet about it. If that's the case there's a good chance that he's not gonna be as comfortable barefoot behind due to increased frog pressure, so keep an eye out for that.

[~*Domino*~]

Glad everything is headed in the right direction!

[FatSpottedAppy]

I'd like to get shoes back on him the next farrier visit, reason being he wont be ridden much until then.. I imagine being barefoot for the first time in at least 4 months(Went and first looked at him in Nov., brought him home mid Feb.) he'll be super sensitive to the dirt roads, right? And as far as I know, his previous owners almost always, if not always, had him shoed for competitions.

Walkin, if you have anything else you'd like to add, feel free to. I'm going to print some of these replies out to see what the vet has to say.


Thanks Domino. :)

[FatSpottedAppy]

OMG.. :( He's lame again..

Not nearly as bad as before but still lame.. just sitting in his stall Wednesday night, came up lame this morning..

[carla]

Oh, darn it! Stop it, Soco, just stop it. :doh: I'll have to go back and catch up on what's going on with appointments, etc now.. :innocent:

[oursarge]

Poor baby, can you get the vet out sooner? He might find something and be able to treat it so he stops going lame and being in pain. Hugs to him.

[FatSpottedAppy]

I am practically begging Mom to get the vet out ASAP...

[oursarge]

Good luck, he sounds like he needs to be looked at sooner than later. I know it's hard when you have to rely on someone else saying to call or not to call. Hugs to him and I hope he's not in pain. If nothing else maybe you can call the vet and he can tell you whether or not to give him Bute.

Rompy went lame when Noah was in the hospital so I told the vet while we were there. He told me 2 Bute 2 Times a day and call him in a couple days if it wasn't gone. Thankfully it was gone. He had his feet trimmed then went running like a maniac, his one foot was really bad and had to be trimmed alot so he thinks it was that, the running with the trim that might have been too short caused the limping. It was so upsetting to watch my baby like that and I don't even have a place to keep him so he can't run around. I want stalls so badly.

Good Luck, I really hope your mom will let you have the vet look at him now.

[FatSpottedAppy]

Well, Mom finally got fed up with me and called the vet and left a message. The vet can't come soon enough..

I soaked his leg again last night, I'll go and soak it again.

Annie I'm glad Rompy ended up being OK.. I know how devastated you would be if it was serious. I just hope whatever is wrong with Soco isn't serious... I am really thinking he is developing arthritis, he has been competing since he was 3..

[oursarge]

I will be thinking about you both, I'm glad the vet is coming. I know you love your boy. He's been competing a long time but maybe it's not as serious as you think or there can be things to be done to keep him going so he can still compete on a lower level like not going so fast.

I was a nervous wreck about Rompy, I had a feeling it was because of the trim, I never saw a hoof grow like that, it didn't look that bad when he had it on the ground but when it was picked up it looked like it had a bump on it, so weird. I think that the trim combined with the maniac running was what did it but still all kinds of things were going through my mind. The Bute helped him right away thankfully.

Good luck I'll be checking back for an update, I really hope the news is better than what you are thinking. He seems like such a nice sweet boy.

[ownedby7horses]

Good luck with his vet exam FSA. That's no good that he keeps coming up lame. Hopefully it's something that can be corrected. I'll be watching for an update, keep your chin up and think positive!

[FatSpottedAppy]

Well the vet is coming out the 14th.. can't get her out sooner.

It pretty much ruined my days to come on what she said could be wrong.. I don't want to say anything though until she comes out.

[~*Domino*~]

Aww, man I am sooo sorry! I sure hope you can at least keep him comfortable until then! I can't believe you can't get a vet out there sooner if he is that uncomfortable! Did they at least tell you something to try to keep him comfortable? I am sending you and Soco many prayers for comfort!

[FatSpottedAppy]

Well, as far as I know we can't, I'm sure if I talked to Mom we could get her out sooner.. She is coming out the 14th to geld Prodigy. Guess it just kind of fell in with that. He doesn't look too uncomfortable, the lameness just comes and goes.

But thanks.. I'm going to spend some quality time with him tomorrow.

[FatSpottedAppy]

OK.. Mom just called.. going to see if we can get her out sooner.

[oursarge]

Good luck & extra hugs to the sweet boy.

[jeezitsjacki]

oh no how could I have missed this. I hope you get everything figured out soon

[FatSpottedAppy]

Vet came today.

Navicular and arthritis in both knees.





We don't know what we're going to do....

[lovesfortune]

heres hoping you get answers soon!!

[FatSpottedAppy]

News above. :(

[Kaitlyn]

That's why a vet check is soooo darn important, even if they are 'reputable' did they sell him 'sound? if not, go back and tell them and explain and they should be good about it and refund.

If not, there's always euthanasia. He's young, yes, but his quality of life will be gone and not many people or places need a pasture pet. Just a thought.

Sorry for the bad news.

[FatSpottedAppy]

They sold him to us sound and the next horse we get there sure as hell will be a vet check. I'm pissed and extremely upset, I dont know whats going to happen.

[Kaitlyn]

Hop on AIM if you can :)

[WashingtonBay]

Vet came today.

Navicular and arthritis in both knees.





We don't know what we're going to do....

Well.... What did the vet say the options are?

Navicular can mean a lot of kinds of heel pain. Was the diagnosis based on an xray, or just from a nerve block and other observable diagnostics?

Bay was diagnosed with Navicular 7 years ago and I treated him like one for 5. I treated him with better shoeing and meds (Isoxuprine and occasional bute) and today he's not on any regular meds and I no longer call him a navicular horse.

Simply saying he has navicular doesn't have to mean a death sentence. In fact, given his history of less than ideal hoof care, better shoeing alone may alleviate his heel pain, and arthritis, depending on it's severity already, can be managed.

[Cat]

How old is Soco? If he is still pretty young - that arthritis is only going to get worse. Navicular - well that can be iffy depending on the reason for it. Some get better, but some never do. Best-case scenario he is going to be an expensive horse - at least for a while - to keep somewhat sound.

I would go back to the seller and see if they will take him back with a refund.

[JackieB]

Poor Soco. Well, keep us posted. With good care, this certainly doesn't have to mean the end for him. There are many things that can be done to treat both of these conditions.

[JennyandJosey]

How did they diagnose navicular?

The things I've read suggest a navicular diagnosis can't accurately be made based on one vet visit...that you need to see changes over time to really get an accurate diagnosis. I could be way off on this and maybe an x-ray would be bad enough to make a clear diagnosis.

I'm sorry you're going through this. What a bummer. :(

[FatSpottedAppy]

For navicular, she did a hoof tester and I guess he reacted very badly to it.. She said that we could get x-rays or a nerve block done but it'd just "cost more money to get it confirmed to be navicular."
She is sure it is navicular.

She said we could keep him on medication/supplement and get a special type of shoe for him(I cant remember the exact shoe, I'd have to ask Mom again) but she doesn't think he'd be able to do the type of work we bought him for.

We still aren't sure what we're going to do. Time will tell.

[WashingtonBay]

All she's sure of then is that he has heel pain. He has a structure and breeding that would make heel pain an easy diagnosis. But that doesn't mean it can't be fixed and the horse be sound. Did she prescribe treatment? What options? Did you start him on something or are you mulling the options? Sorry for not participating in this thread up till now, I don't have all the background. How old is he? How long have you had him?

I don't know if he'll be competitive or not, but don't write him off yet. Just get a good corrective trim and shoe on him, probably with pads, and listen to the farrier more than the vet on what kind. Right now a good farrier is vital.

[Joey A]

With all due respect to your veterinarian, navicular disease CAN NOT be diagnosed without x-rays to confirm bony changes. (only one set is required to confirm.) I'm not saying that she is wrong, but based on the condition of his feet it could very easily be caudal heel pain. (which is nearly identical to nav dis in presentation and hoof testing... AKA nav syndrome)

Neither condition necessarily precludes the horse from competition. If there's no rads to confirm nav changes, the arthritis is more of a concern IMO. Treating nav syndrome is a walk in the park for a good farrier, and if you can get him comfortable and he "wants" to run, let him run. That's my take on it, and I know some people won't like it, but I say let the horses attitude dictate their life not their condition.

Now that's not to say I wouldn't brow beat someone for riding a horse that ever shows lame...I'll expand on this later... I'm at a buffet eating dinner... lol

[PaintedDreamer_0110]

Sorry bout the bad news FSA. I hope you guys can at least get him comfortable then figure out where you want to go from there. I agree with everything walkin fool had to say as well.

[~*Domino*~]

Wow, I am so sorry! Hopefully the vet is wrong about this. I believe I would so more investigating on the whole deal! ((Hugs))!

[JennyandJosey]

I definitely think you should look into this more...get x-rays or a second opinion. I also don't think navicular can be diagnosed simply through hoof testers.

[Tiz]

It would be more surprising if he didn't have a touch of arthritis, if he's been running barrels. Your vet pulled a major cop out, in my opinion, with the instant diagnosis, while using no diagnostic tools. Both of the conditions she laid on you are guesses only without xrays.

[oursarge]

I'm sorry Morgan, I truly am. I don't know if he'll ever be able to barrel race but don't write him off as a trail horse. I already told you about the navicular [Maybe she's not even right? She might not be right about anything if she didn't take X-rays.] and with the arthritis there are some really good suppliments out there, same friend I told you about, different horse. He is a very arthritic show horse, she put him on a suppliment [It's expensive] and that stuff has worked miracles on him, he's still showing and winning and he's not in pain. There are ways to help, I'd never dream of putting him down [What another person suggested] unless I tried everything else and it didn't work. How close are you to Cornell University? If you are not far it might be worth hauling him there, I know that's where people here go if they don't go to Pine Bush NY, Cornell seems to be the place of choice though and I've heard they aren't that expensive. They are 3 hrs from us.

Good luck and I really hope it will turn out for you, if you can't keep him I hope you can find someone who will take him for light trail work or a pet since his former owners don't seem like they can be trusted. This is all very sad.

[Joey A]

Even with your vets so called diagnosis, you still need rad's to find the location of the bone in the foot so that a shoe can be set properly around it to maximize the horses chances/improvement without going too far. In these cases you ideally want the breakover point directly under the tip of the coffin bone to ease strain on the navicular bone. If you're really good at reading the sole, you can get close without x-rays, but the sole has been trimmed too much to really use it as a reference.

Then it's a matter of trimming the heels back to the level of the "live" sole, wedging to correct the alignment of the bones (also a reason for the x-rays) and using as much sole/frog support as possible. If this is only navicular syndrome, then that sole support is going to be crucial to relieve the stress off of those sore heels. Get everything to function together again and you will have the best chance of recovery. If the sole support is left out, that will only overload the already sore heels. sole support sole support sole support, I can't stress that enough. You just need to stay away from the sore areas when you apply it.

Send your farrier to horseshoes.com and have him join the forum there. He needs this info first hand, and that way he can ask any questions he may have. There's a lot of really good top level guys there, he can get a lot of help unless he's a know-it-all-ego-maniac.

[JackieB]

If you follow WF's advice FSA, there is a chance that Soco could have lots of good years ahead of him. X-rays would point to exactly what's going on inside there. You could post them here and WF and HF could give you advice.

[cloedoll]

Oh wow this is tough. I'm so sorry you have to go through this Morgan. **BIG hugs**

[HoustonFarrier]

Everything WF said is spot on correct......get x-rays, let's see what is REALLY happening.

Steve

[WashingtonBay]

I think HF and WF are correct, and if your farrier would be aided by xrays, certainly get them.

You would also find out if there is actual, visible bone damage that indicates a more serious Navicular syndrome. If getting xrays is not a particular hardship for you, certainly get them.

But here's another experience, that may not be the same as yours, but may be worth a shot, if getting the xrays is something that will either cause hardship or delay in making a decision about him.

My vet told me that xrays are NOT always definitive on Navicular, that not all 'navicular' pain will have bony changes that are visible. He also said this when he was not yet well equipped to do mobile xrays, and now he can, so.... Take that for what it's worth.

What we decided to DO, in lieu of making arrangements for xrays is to treat him as if he was a Navicular horse and see if his lameness went away. We put him in shoes and pads with the correct heel and a rolled toe for easier breakover (without xrays this is an educated guess, as WF said). We treated him with Isoxuprine and bute as needed to reduce any and all existing inflammation. (As I recall, we gave it to him daily for a week, then every other day for another week, and then only as needed after that). But better shoeing, with pads, was probably the biggest factor for Bay. Your horse might be sore because he does not have a great foot and he's bare right now. That's enough to make him react to hoof testers right there, IMHO. Get good shoes and pads on him, let him heal and get used to them, then test again.

Other factors... turn him out and let him move. Circulation and movement is good for both his feet and his knees.

Also - find out if and what drugs are not allowed and within what time frame should you want to compete.

[ownedby7horses]

oh no FSA, that sucks about Soco. I think there has been some great answers and advice about this for you. If you don't want to muck around with this, will his previous owners take him back and give you a refund?

[cloedoll]

After reading responses from HF, WF, WBay, etc. I think you should decide if Soco is thee one and worth it to look into this further and possibly get him sound or if it makes more sense to see if the seller will take him back and continue searching for your perfect horse. This all sounds like it will take a lot of time, money and frustration, so is Soco worth it? Can he be that dream game horse? If not, I don't know if it will be worth it. I don't want to come off like, "the horse can't do the job, so screw him over (can I say that on the forum? lol)" because that's not what I mean but I am sure it's coming off like that. I'm frustrated for you and am sorry you have to go through this...:(

[Joey A]

I think HF and WF are correct, and if your farrier would be aided by xrays, certainly get them.

You would also find out if there is actual, visible bone damage that indicates a more serious Navicular syndrome. If getting xrays is not a particular hardship for you, certainly get them.

Damage to the navicular bone is what classifies it as navicular disease. Navicular Syndrome is a bit of a catchall phrase, which means theres no evidence of bony changes, but they still test positive with hoof testers and nerve blocks as a horse with navicular disease would.


But here's another experience, that may not be the same as yours, but may be worth a shot, if getting the xrays is something that will either cause hardship or delay in making a decision about him.

My vet told me that xrays are NOT always definitive on Navicular, that not all 'navicular' pain will have bony changes that are visible. He also said this when he was not yet well equipped to do mobile xrays, and now he can, so.... Take that for what it's worth.


Navicular Synrdome, for any reason, will eventually lead to navicular disease if left untreated. Navicular burstitis, impar ligament strain etc, can get bad enough to effect the function (adhesions from the bursa to the ddft), and bloodflow to the navicular bone. Neither of which would show up on an x-ray, but if the proper considerations are not made the condition will degenerate into navicular disease.

Reguardless of the type of shoe used, he's going to need to be trimmed properly. If your vet reccomended the KB aluminum nav eggbar shoe, make sure that when the leg is loaded he still stands level. If he rocks forward onto his toes then he's not set right and probably needs a wedge pad, or more wedging than what he has. If he's comfortable he'll stand level with his heels loaded, rocking forward is a sign that there's still stress on the navicular area, or at least a balance problem. (which even if he was sound, I'd probably still have him in a wedge pad as he stands now) It could also simply be a matter of the shoe being too big and the relief is too far back.

ETA: I really don't like the KB shoe. The relief is too far back for most horses and most will rock forward. I've only set them a couple times, primarily because I have better success with other methods. Also, I don't know what the prices in your area are, but I charge and additional $40-50 for them above and beyond the normal cost of my shoeing, and they usually need to be replaced about every 3 months. (reset every 5-6 weeks) Add to that the cost of the shoeing, wedges, and sole support, you're looking at a lot of money. But those KB's can result in a $100 swing in the cost.

[WashingtonBay]

That is the decision in a nutshell cloe. I'd like to think there will be best attempts to give the horse a shot at comfort, whatever that is. But when I was making decisions for Bay, he was a "whatever it takes" horse for me. I was and am willing to adjust his job to suit him. If gaming is the ONLY reason to own this horse, then perhaps it will not work out. He may have a lot more success if the goal was light pleasure and trail than he might as a gamer. Who knows though, it's too soon to tell.

[Annie&Dixie]

I know nothing about Navicular so I can't offer any worth-while advice but I'm very sorry, Morgan. My heart goes out to you with the whole thing and your past with buying/selling horses.

Cheer up, look at the problem without any expectations, and decide what's best for you and Soco. :)

[FlapJack]

But when I was making decisions for Bay, he was a "whatever it takes" horse for me. I was and am willing to adjust his job to suit him.

That's how it was for me when Atty developed partial blindness. I haven't jumped in a long time but I am happy adjusting to suit him, too. I totally feel for you FSA, how frustrating a situation to be in. I don't have any advice on the navicular thing, I know nothing about it, but I'll be following your situation. Sending prayers your way.

[cloedoll]

Any new news?

[Beausgirl]

I would certainly give what our "on line farriers"are telling you about this serious consideration before you decide to just write this horse off. I remember a few years back, Navicular was certainly a "death sentance" as far as most horse owners were concerned. But I really beleive with the advancements made in the trimming and shoeing industry - this is not necessarily the case anymore. If he is also arthritic, there are options out there for that now too. They won't "cure" his arthritis, but they will make him much more comfortable, and insome cases, arrest the arthritis so it doesn't progress - at least not at it's normal rate. your vet can do an IV shot called "legend", or there is also another injection that is IM now. I am using it on my 25 year old gelding (also used for barrells at a young age ..:doh:) - and it's working wonders. He's not used for ridng anymore, although I probably could now. I started him on the IM injections in the fall, and he's a different horse. And he had arthritis badly. He'd been on oral supplements for years - since he was probably 15 or 16, buty was at the point where he would rarely stand straight - always had a bit of abend in the knee. So i asked the vet whatelse we could do, and he recommended these shots. I give them myself, they cost about $3.00 a shot and he goes 3 weeks in between shots. An example of how well he's doing - I moved them into our south pasture last weekend - it's FULL of snow, and he was out there galloping around with the other two -through deep drifts and all - nice and smooth - long strides - he was feeling great. SO - for the arthritis - that's an option too. I think I may have posted a thread about this stuff when I first started administering it to him.... because of course - I can't think of what it's called right now! It's just glucosamine.....I'll look at home and if you're interested, will post it tomorrow.
Good luck with him. Try not to get too upset with your vet's diagnosis just yet. Explore your options - and - I hope it all works out for the best.

[Equine_Woman]

I'm so sorry FSA. I can't add anything but that! What a hard decision you have!!! Good luck making it!

[jeezitsjacki]

im sorry you are going through all of this. hopefully you can figure it out. This is so hard for you. Keep us updated

[carla]

Oh I'm so sorry, FSA. I was still expecting the visit to be in April. Glad you got her out sooner, but sorry for the news. I know that you will make the right decisions, though. (((hugs)))

[zoel_222]

I'm so sorry about Soco. I agree with the others about xrays... also with Caitlin. I hope something will work out for both of you :( (((((hugs)))))

[elevenelevenxo]

I'm going to also chime in about getting x-rays done. It won't hurt anything. :)

[FatSpottedAppy]

Time for an update..

Soco will be returning to his previous owners and I will be receiving a partial refund, however there ARE going to be xrays involved to prove whether or not he does have navicular disease. The previous owners say he doesn't have navicular and any horse can have arthritis(which is true in ways, but they're implying it in a way that's saying you shouldn't be concerned about arthritis because any horse can have it). They will take good care of him, there weren't any hard feelings, and Mom will explain what the farrier irl and the farriers on here had to say about his hooves..

I want to thank everyone for all the advice and replies I've gotten.. this has really been hard and I'm extremely upset that it didn't work out.. Soco was bought primarily as a barrel horse and I expected to get something 100% sound for 1800(that is a lot for me).. There will be a vet check for sure next time...

[WashingtonBay]

Good for you, and it sounds like, for Soco, I'm glad they're going to look into it further with him but it's not all put on you.

[oursarge]

I replied to your other post before seeing this. I am glad that his owners will take him back, hopefully they will get him the help he needs. The poor baby, it's really sad. I hope you will find the perfect barrel horse who will be able to run for a long time. Good Luck.

[Joey A]

Time for an update..

Soco will be returning to his previous owners and I will be receiving a partial refund, however there ARE going to be xrays involved to prove whether or not he does have navicular disease. The previous owners say he doesn't have navicular and any horse can have arthritis(which is true in ways, but they're implying it in a way that's saying you shouldn't be concerned about arthritis because any horse can have it). They will take good care of him, there weren't any hard feelings, and Mom will explain what the farrier irl and the farriers on here had to say about his hooves..

I want to thank everyone for all the advice and replies I've gotten.. this has really been hard and I'm extremely upset that it didn't work out.. Soco was bought primarily as a barrel horse and I expected to get something 100% sound for 1800(that is a lot for me).. There will be a vet check for sure next time...

The only part about this that concerns me is who's gonna be paying for the x-rays. I wouldn't feel right paying to diagnose someone elses problem. I don't mean to sound so cold, but IMO, he was lame once before, and already wearing an aluminum wedge shoe, I personally think they knew he had problems. Sending him back with x-rays is effectively paying them to find out whats wrong with their horse.

Those wedge shoes are pricey, and generally something that you only see when a vet suggests it. Have you talked to their vet/farrier about him? I'd probalby try that and see if you can catch them with their pants down. You just gotta be careful how you go about talking asking questions.

[elevenelevenxo]

The only part about this that concerns me is who's gonna be paying for the x-rays. I wouldn't feel right paying to diagnose someone elses problem. I don't mean to sound so cold, but IMO, he was lame once before, and already wearing an aluminum wedge shoe, I personally think they knew he had problems. Sending him back with x-rays is effectively paying them to find out whats wrong with their horse.

Those wedge shoes are pricey, and generally something that you only see when a vet suggests it. Have you talked to their vet/farrier about him? I'd probalby try that and see if you can catch them with their pants down. You just gotta be careful how you go about talking asking questions.

I agree. I was jerked around by the owners of the Walking Horse mare I bought last spring....she did some really scary things, like completely lose the use of one of her front legs for a few seconds at a time - very unusual and obviously not right. Vet couldn't diagnose anything as she was "sound as a dollar" when he looked at her and the previous owners said nothing was wrong with her. But I know what I saw and know that horses don't do that unless something is really wrong with them.

I'd just hate to see you get taken advantage of.

[FatSpottedAppy]

My Mom thinks its BS, as does her boyfriend and I but we have to take what we can get.. It's better than them just saying "no, he's your problem now."

And now there aren't going to be any x-rays involved. Soco is on his way home, Mom called the original owner, the original owner starts pitching a fit and tells Mom that she'll just give 1500 back and we can go our separate ways. Mom said the same thing as you did, Walkin, she thinks that they knew he had something wrong since they completely dropped the idea of getting x-rays. And guess what.. they're still going to sell him again.

The start of this mess, I told one of my school friends about it.. they asked who we bought Soc from. When I told him, he started going on a huge rant about how his Dad's friend bought a horse from them once and then found out the horse was going blind when they got it home. :( A few days later he told me he told his Dad and his Dad I guess just shook his head. Siighhh.

This is such a mess. I just want it to be over with.

[pandorasmom]

So sorry your going thru all of this. I've been following this for updates, just haven't had any input besides to say sorry!!! If you don't mind me asking where's Prods name in your sig?? I only saw Raen and Razzberrys names. Just wanted to make sure I didn't miss something about Prod.

[FatSpottedAppy]

Prod and Tyke are in the image, Raen and Razzy are in the text. Just shortening it up a little. :)

[pandorasmom]

Prod and Tyke are in the image, Raen and Razzy are in the text. Just shortening it up a little. :)

Ahhhhh I gotcha!! Sorry about that. I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss something. I couldn't remember if you had, had Prod and Tyke in the Text and/or just the image.
Sorry about that! :)

[oursarge]

I hope he gets a good home where he can just do light work, sounds like they won't tell the truth so the poor horse will keep getting passed from home to home unless he finds someone who doesn't want to do much but have a horse to take care of like I did with my Dommie. Good luck with the next one I really hope it works out this time, I know it's hard to find a good Barrel Horse because so many have issues either mental or physical.

[zoel_222]

I'm sorry about Soco. :( I really hope the old owners will be honest the next time.....

[GrungeEquestrian]

O I am so so sorry Morgan that this happened to you. I don't know what I would have done if I found out Trouble had something similar to Soco when I just brought her home *hugs*. Its sellers like this one that gives all sellers a bad name. Good luck with your search on a new reliable completely sound horse. I do agree with everything that said to try out Razz, you said she used to run barrels and who knows you might have your perfect barrel horse right under your nose. Some of the best barrel racers I've known have been ponies or short little Arabians or QHs.

[vicklynn]

Im sorry to hear about what happened FSA. I am glad you gave him back, and agree that the horse had the issues when you bought him. Vet check is sooooo important in a sale.
Good luck in your new search!!!!

[Joey A]

I'm sorry about Soco. :( I really hope the old owners will be honest the next time.....

Personally, I'd make it a point to tell them he's not a sound horse, should not be sold as such, and now you have a veterinary proof that this horse has navicular. Although I don't agree with it, (not that I think the vet is nessicarily wrong, but her method of diagnosis is incomplete to say the least) to sell the horse without acknowledging this is ILLEGAL. They need at the very least veterinary documentation proving the previous diagnosis was wrong, why it was wrong, and what was done to remedy the problem in order to sell it again as sound.

I'd let them know that I'll be a thorn in their side if they try to do this again. For right now, I'd have to give them the benefit of doubt, but to do it again...

[ownedby7horses]

aww, sorry about Soco. It sounds like they definately knew he was lame when they sold him to you. It sucks that Soco will likely be passed around from home to home because they'll probably never tell the truth about him. So, did your moms bf buy that other horse from them? Is he ok or did they lie about something with him too? This sucks that you have to be on the hunt again, but if Razz used to run barrels, I'd give her a shot at it. One of my friends used to barrel race CCA, HSRA, SBRA, with an arabian...and win alot. I had a pony cross that would have whopped butt in barrels, but I sold him instead. You just never know, your barrel horse might just be right under your nose!

[FatSpottedAppy]

I plan on trying Razz out on barrels but not as a permanent barrel pony as I'd like something bigger(I feel tall on her-- I have long legs.) If I can't find a horse by fair then I am just going to take Razzberry.. I will be trail riding her all summer until I find a horse anyway.

My Mom stuck a copy of the diagnosis paper in with his registration papers. I am 99% sure that the word of him having navicular and arthritis will get around the surrounding towns very quickly. My Mom's boyfriend is the boss of the lady who sold him to us' son in law, and her, her son in law, and overall family are very close in the horse business(you talk about one, you're talking about all of them.) The place he works at is very big and gossipy and when word hits that Soco-- the supposedly "super star" horse from the "super star" people-- was returned because of navicular and arthritis, no one is going to want to buy Soco and I imagine some people are gonig to be skeptical of buying from them. I am going to look for ads though. I hope he isn't passed from home to home, he's such a sweetheart..


Bear is okay, we haven't found anything wrong with him. They just sold him because he was getting old.. but we're keeping an extra watchful eye on him now because of this.

[zoel_222]

Oh man I didn't even think about Bear. I hope he'll stay sound.

[miatapony]

I definitely think you should look into this more...get x-rays or a second opinion. I also don't think navicular can be diagnosed simply through hoof testers.



well my shoer was dead on when he said runner had it so im not saying it is not possiable but your shoer and vet might have a feeling for it ... but i would stil get exrays done and look into the tildren shot.also

[lisakaye]

Don't feel too bad about the Navicular. I found out today that Easter has Navicular in her front left also. Not sure what I am going to do either except some stronger supplements, different shoes and bute till she feels better.

[carla]

Well I'm glad the owners are taking him back, FSA, and that you'll at least get some of your money back to put toward a different horse. Strange how they originally wanted the xrays but then dropped it suddenly, huh?

[Equine_Woman]

Well I'm glad you are getting a partial refund. I'm sorry you have to go through all this. It's a tough lesson. Vet checks are key to any horse purchase. I agree that it sounds like the previous owners knew something was up with him. He was likely on pain meds when you bought him. I hope Soco has a good life, maybe someone will take him for very light work.

[JackieB]

Sorry, FSA. A difficult experience to have to go through. I'm glad it's coming to a resolution.

[John Boy]

I want to comment on this as so many had advised and given great informative info.

This is in no way hacking on Fatspottedappy.

When we look at buying a horse , we must think of all the conformation things that make up a horse , and what that breed is prominately used for and how we want to use the horse.
Ironically we are looking at age , health , and cost.

There was an old saying and I am sure everyone knows it - buying a horse is the cheap part of the acquisition.
Sometimes we need to reflect on this and what we plan on using the horse for and how long we plan on keeping this animal we are responsible for it's well being.
IMO Sport horses even if we acquire them for thousands of dollars or get them on the cheap end , need pre-purchase exams.
A pre-purchase not only protects you as a horse purchaser , but also the seller from any wrong doing.
--------------
A quick story :
For a couple years I slowly intensified my search across WI looking for a dressage prospect that I might consider jumping as well as trail riding etc etc ...
I came across an ad - TB not making it on the track and was a potential dressage , hunter prospect. Price was in my ballpark. My current trainer was knowledgable of the owner from Arlington , and I looked over the horse very carefully , test rode , jumped and felt the horse was pretty level headed. Looked at the horse 3 more times very closely before I left ,and just thought there was a nice connection with this athlete. Because I was across the state , I was forced to use the same vet the sale barn used , but once I met the vet I felt comfortable. 3/4 through the pre-purchase he spotted a tendon issue. After a serious conversation , I thanked him , and contacted the owner bypassing the sale barn owner. After I talked with my vet , and realizing this was a 40/60% chance , I offered him a lower respectable price. The owner said no. I passed on the horse and NEVER looked back.
The pre-purchase saved me many possible issues later and possibly all the headaches as well.

[miatapony]

i belive in vet checks in buying or selling horses . now if selling i ask the buyer to pay for the vet exam and if the horse i have is passed the buyer pays the vet check if the horse fails ill pay it.

[YAorNEIGH]

I'm sorry that this happened to you, FSA. This is a good lesson for us all...:( When it comes time to buy my own horses someday, I'll be sure to always get a vet check. This is a real shame.