Is Your Horse an Air Fern? There may be a reason! [Archive]

Gypsy Rose

10-15-2008, 04:45 PM

Many of us look at our easy keepers- or "air ferns" as we like to call them, as a blessing. But is it?

I was under the impression for many years that having an easy keeper was a great thing- less feed an hay to buy, easier to maintain weight in winter- all those good things.

But what I didn't know, was that being such an easy keeper is not necessarily a good thing.

I'm sure we've all heard at one time or another that excees weight is bad for a horse with arthritis. Unfortunately, there may be other things going on inside your horse's body that may not be visible to the eye, but still may be bad for your horse. Think insulin resistance, Cushing's and EMS (Equine Metabolic Syndrome).

Take Gypsy for instance. Classic air fern- so long as she gets her digestive aids, that is. I thought it was a good thing, until a few years ago, when I started hearing things about insulin resistance in horses. The simplest way for me to understand it is the fact that it's very similar to Type 2 Diabetes in humans.

I started taking a more critical look at my horse against the symptoms- one of the main ones being a cresty neck and abnormal fatty deposits.

I'm thinking, "Nah! She's fine- she's just a little tubby- nothing like the pictures I've seen."

This spring, for Gypsy's annual vaccinations and checkup, I had a new vet come out- one highly recommended that had started an equine practice in my area in the last year.

As he was standing there looking at the overall condition of her, I asked him if she had any signs of insulin resistance.

"Not, really, no. We'd have to do bloodwork to be sure. However, that doesn't mean she isn't borderline, and it could blow up in your face one day." The reason he stated that was because of her history of being an air fern.

Just on that alone? You bet.

Luckily, thanks to PeggySue, I had already begun the process of changing her diet to be geared toward feeding an insulin resistant horse. She's now on beet pulp to mix her supplements in- which includes a good multi, her joint supplement, her digestive aid, flax and MSM. Her hay has been lightly rained on, so hopefully, that helped cut the sugars down a bit (fructan levels). I've also learned that cutting back on hay to help a horse lose weight is not usually a smart thing to do with an insulin resistant horse, lol!

Anyone else out there have "air ferns"? Insulin reistant, Cushing's or EMS horses?

From what I've learned (which isn't much, unfortunately), these three conditions are very similar, yet different in nature.

It would be intreresting to hear some stories about experiences with these disorders, and what you've done to help your horse.

Arrow

10-15-2008, 04:50 PM

Since Arrow's a hard keeper, I can add nothing--but I'll be reading the thread as it goes. Very interesting!

cloedoll

10-15-2008, 04:52 PM

Very interesting post, Gypsy! Like Arrow said, I'm going to keep coming back and looking for others posts. BTW, you are a very good mom to Gypsy. (:

WashingtonBay

10-15-2008, 04:53 PM

Our mare was so thin when we got her, that we fed her like a hard keeper for a year.

Then one day we noticed she was starting to look like a harbor seal.

We no longer consider her a hard keeper. We think they just didn't feed her anything.

She thinks about food all the time, I don't think she's really IR or really borderline, but she was the one I worried about and really limited on spring grass this year, moreso than our pony even.

She gets free fed a good quality orchard grass hay, and that's what's doing it, she only gets about a pound of a ration balancer in addition. Limiting her hay would be hard without changing our whole setup as she's in a communal setting with the others. She's maintaining, she's no longer getting fatter. But she's maintaining on not much, and it's hard to cut her back any more. More work would be good ;)

BalooEyes

10-15-2008, 05:13 PM

Nope-- Baloo is a hard keeper. He gets 5 lbs of TC complete feed 2x a day, and its just right to maintain him in his work schedule of about 4-5 days/week.

I have known a good amount of ponies that were such easy keepers that they had to be monitored closely because they were founder-prone. The one mare, a smaller QH, had bad hocks (can you say post-legged?) and navicular and was pretty darn obese, she has to be closely monitored, and you can barely let her out on grass.

Gypsy Rose

10-15-2008, 05:33 PM

I have known a good amount of ponies that were such easy keepers that they had to be monitored closely because they were founder-prone. The one mare, a smaller QH, had bad hocks (can you say post-legged?) and navicular and was pretty darn obese, she has to be closely monitored, and you can barely let her out on grass.

Ahhh- almost classic symptoms of IR or EMS! Easy keper, and founder prone.

Believe it or not, my vet told me that Gypsy may possibly have had, or may get a very mild bout of laminitis without me even knowing it, discernable only by x-ray. Scary! She's never shown any symptoms!

Peggy Sue

10-15-2008, 06:24 PM

Many times IR, Cushings adn EMS can be controlled thur diet alone ... a good complete ration balancer IMO is the best start for any diet behind free choice hay ... I own actually four but take care of three that are easy keepers. I monitor weight closely on all four and make sure I keep the nutrition level high and the sugars and starches LOW.. When I started on this "journey" of IR and stuff I learned alot hard and fast and the biggest thing I learned was to cut the sugars andstarches as much as we can control on ALL of our horses... treat them all as if they are TO A POINT... IOW get rid of the grain products and use forage based ones with min amount of molasses

walkinthewalk

10-15-2008, 06:45 PM

"However, that doesn't mean she isn't borderline, and it could blow up in your face one day."

That is pretty much what happened with Duke, the horse in my avatar. The signs I thought were "just getting older signs" were actually the precursor to what was coming.

I didn't think a thing of him laying down, deer style, because it has always been a warm-spring-day-routine for Duke and the others -- except he was staying down longer than usual.

I didn't think a thing of him dropping his head nearly to the ground as if to catnap during that time, except to chalk it up to "getting older" (he was 20).

When he first started losing some much-needed pounds, my infinite wisdom thought, "opening up that other three acres with all that hill-climbing is doing him some good."

Then one day I looked at him from directly behind and realized his butt suddenly wasn't any bigger than it had been as a coming three year old. So I took a closer look & feel under his still thick & lingering winter hair (not shaggy as in Cushings, but still much thicker than need be for early spring.

To my shock Duke had lost what I estimated to be around 80#, and it happened in a six week period in March/April of 2007. I could tell he had lost a tremendous amount of muscle mass as well.

I quickly made appointments with two vets in two separate counties to do bloodwork and give me their conclusions. I was thinking Cushings, but Duke didn't have any of the typical Cushings symptoms except for the cresty neck and fat pockets on the rump.

Vet #1: My regular vet in my county stated the blood tests were "inconclusive", but that Duke was definitely "cushionoid". He wanted to start Duke on Pergolide "15 minutes ago".

I refused the Pergolide because I had already been researching the Net and it seemed to me that horses who weren't CLEARLY full-blown Cushings actually did worse when put on Pergolide --- worse as in severe founder.

Vet#2: My vet/chiropractor in the next county over and who sends her blood samples to a different laboratory also stated the blood tests were "inconclusive", but that Duke was definitely "cushionoid". This vet nixed the Pergolide, but would only suggest "watching Duke's diet closely and drylotting him". When asked what I should do for his diet, she just said "don't feed him sweet feed".

I spent every spare moment away from work (and some at work) researching to find not only answers regarding Duke's disease, but how to feed him.

I was fortunate to have the acquaintance of two excellent equine dieticians and got the name of a third one from another message board.

I give Thanks every day Duke blows in my face that these three people guided me in the right direction and Duke's diet was on target on the first try.

Duke is still laminitic but has never foundered.

Duke still goes out on pasture 10-14 hours daily without a muzzle. I will never drylot him because he is the Alpha-dominant leader in my herd of four. Separating him from his heard would bring on stress that would cause more damage than letting him eat grass --- I have tried it. I would rather give him 5 or 6 more years of QUALITY life on his terms, than to stretch him out to 8,9, or 10 years having a broken spirit and wearing a "breathing tube" so-to-speak.

I took back the farrier work on everyone in order to put that $$$$ into Duke's special needs and also to closely monitor his hooves.

Hoof care for these metabolic horses is crucial. Like a human diabetic's feet need close monitoring, IMHO, these metabolic horses need their hooves at least filed down once a month. I am fortunate to be able to do my own, because I keep after Duke every two weeks with just the rasp and the hoof knife if his frogs have dead flaps on them.

As Gypsy Rose has already stated, don't breath too easy because your Easy Keeper is saving you feed bills. Had I not been going thru this with Duke, I would have completely missed the very very early signs of I-R in my 12 yo TWH and he could very well have ended up like Duke or even worse before he even hit the age of 20.

The barefoot farrier that gave me refresher courses on my own horses over the past winter, commented that he had seen a rash of horses with laminitic and/or founder issues, and some with possible metabolic issues during our 2007 summer and fall.

We were in "exceptional drought" status. Our rain shortfall was at least 14", I think a little more. Grass quit growing, so everyone's horses, including mine, were eating it as soon as it popped out of the ground --- over-loaded with sugars.

It made sense to me because my 12 yo TWH went from a nice 1,100# to around 1,250# that summer and his hooves reflected "starch overload" without question. All that changed was the grass. He never has been fed enough grain to keep my Rottweiler fat.

I have links to some great articles where the writers can explain things much better than I can. I will post them separately in this thread, so they don't get lost in all my rattling.

I come from a family of horse folks. My grandpap always loved to see a "chunk with a good solid neck". Little did I know--------------

Also, in closing this post, PLEASE KNOW that thin and/or emaciated horses can also develop Cushings, I-R/EMS. While not as common as in the air ferns, it does happen, so it is important to really know your horse and recognize any signs that may indicate Equine Diabitis, to keep the words simple.

I am so glad Gypsy Rose started this thread. If it raises awareness to save just one horse's health every year, it will be well worth the effort:)

Gypsy Rose

10-15-2008, 06:57 PM

Walkinthewalk, could you explain what you meant about the hooves reflecting starch overload?

That's another thing- I've finally convinced my farrier that just because Gypsy's feet are great, doesn't mean she shouldn't be trimmed more often than when she was younger, lol!

He's a great farrier, but he'd only heard of insulin resistance in passing, and never related it to laminitis or founder. After he was here the last time, and I brought up what I'd been learning about the importance of hoof care in insulin resistant horses, he decided that when he got home, he was going to hit the computer, he,he!

Wonderful post, by the way- keep 'em coming!

Pi and Tofu

10-15-2008, 07:00 PM

I have one hard keeper and one very easy keeper. The easy keeper is a draft cross; since drafts and EPSM are associative, it is common to feed them a EPSM preventative diet, which would be an IR diet-low sugars, low nsc. Lots of info on EPSM out there for anyone interested.

Remali

10-15-2008, 07:06 PM

This is a GREAT topic, glad you posted this Gypsy Rose! My mare Kara was one of those air ferns.....unfortuanately I was at the mercy of what they fed wherever I boarded her at, and yes I did move her to different stables if the feed was bad or just plain stupid....but it is so hard to control sometimes, and she ended up with founder due to really excessive grain and pure alfalfa, the barn owner wouldn't listen to us despite our warnings....Kara foundered and another horse did too....thankfully Kara recovered but it was touch and go for a while. I know nothing of insulin resistance in horses so I'm reading this with much interest!!

medicine hat

10-15-2008, 07:35 PM

Remali my horses story is similar~the family I boarded him with was feeding 3rd cutting alfalfa + alfalfa based pellets. my horse developed laminitis, and even though the vet & farrier told them he needed a different diet, they insisted "theyed always fed that way & I just wanted to starve my horse to control him" :mad:
so I moved my horse and luckily the laminitis improved with a change in diet & consistent excersize. his weight has stayed normal and he's been fine ever since. he eats a blend of free choice grass/alfalfa hay, no grain, about 1/4 cup freshly ground flax 3 x weekly,full pasture turnout (but the pasture has very little grass because there are so many horses on it~perfect for my boy) and we ride for miles (5-10) at least 3 days a week. I do let him forage on the trails~i believe his body can assimilate the nutrients, vitamins & minerals in the variety of plants better than suppliments. for treats I buy high mineral low sugar horse treats, or add dried chamomile flowers to his flax (good for digestion). I learned even the sugars in apples & carrots can cause problems in some horses who are sensitive to the sugars.
I heard on a radio show http://www.integralhorse.com/ that the grass seed used in pastures now was developed mainly for cattle, to increase weight as quickly as possible, and when horses get these grasses in their pastures it can cause some of the insulin problems that we are hearing so much about now.
I am very interested in this topic as well, and so far the best thing I found that helped my horse was consistent regular excersize for maintaining his weight.
when we tried to put a weight tape around him a couple years ago, it WOULDN'T EVEN REACH AROUND HIM! and he is only 14 hands tall! YIKES! that is when I got dedicated to our excersize program~and it helps me keep in shape too~

walkinthewalk

10-15-2008, 07:55 PM

"could you explain what you meant about the hooves reflecting starch overload?"

I have only owned The 12 yo (Joker) for two years. Except for contracted heels brought on by shoes too small and not getting re-set often enough, he had great hooves.

After I had my regular shoer come in Oct, 2007 to pull Duke and Joker's shoes (Duke's hooves were so compromised that my shoer felt it best to keep shoes on him until our drought ended and we got some moisture in our ground), I noticed Joker's front hooves had gone conCAVE instead of con VEX.

In other words, they were dished:eek::eek: My shoer never said a word and I didn't notice until the next day. To re-iterate, the ONLY thing that changed in all my horses diets was the drought. The Arab and the 14-1/2 yo Walker remain unaffected.

I wasted no time calling the local feed dealer for the number on the busines card that the new barefoot farrier had left with them. I was in yet another panic seeing Joker's front hooves like that.

Joker's hooves got a little warm, but they never got fever, he never got sore or lame and he never foundered. Eventually big-honkin' "sick rings" did start growing down his hoof. He did become slightly laminitic because his soles also lost a little depth but nothing like what Duke was going thru.

It has been year and Joker's big ole Walkin' horse hooves are back to normal, plus his contracted heels have reversed. I owe all that to the Pete Ramey student who willingly drove 40 miles one way, every 5 weeks, to tutor me and didn't ask enough $$ to even get half tank of gas in his old Blazer.

Here are a couple links that talk about Cushings, IR/EMS.

The best description is on the Purina WellSolve site, with links on the left in the blue block.

http://www.wellsolveequine.com/

Next is Sierra Ranch. I don't know what their credentials are to write this article, but I can relate to the "equine fibromyalgia" because Duke's hock and ankle arthritis exploded in a big way when the EMS hit him full force. He is on meds for that.

http://www.srsbrand.com/content.asp?id=21

Dr. Kellon's Yahoo Equine Cushings Group. Membership is free. The board is hard for me to read, so I don't go there too often.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/

I am posting the link to "TheHorse.com" even though it is 4 years old and much has been learned since. It is still an informative article.

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=2175

I have more, but these are the best ones in terms of facts and presenting things in an easy-to-understand manner.

I am going to dig up some EMS before and after pics of Duke for another post because he is unrecognizable as being the same horse.

Gypsy Rose

10-15-2008, 08:13 PM

From what medicine hat is saying, maybe it's a good thing I can't afford to reseed my pasture, then, lol!

walkinthewalk- hmmm- you've got me thinking about Gypsy's hooves. I have never really felt any warmth in them, and her soles are fine, but she does have a slight dish ring almost grown out now on her off fore. Funny thing is, I don't realy notice it on the other foot.

I'm wondering if that could have been a laminitic episode- we had a drought here, too. Thing is, I didn't notice anything off about her.

Could also be nutritional though- this would have occured before PeggySue and I tweaked her diet- Last winter, I had her on about a pound and a half of Senior feed- she lost weight on me quickly, just as you described, last fall before I could get on top of it- grass went fast because of the drought, lol! That and the multivitamin I was feeding her stopped putting digestive enzymes in, and I didn't realize it until months down the road. She may not have been utilizing the feed she was getting very well. Needless to say, she gets a separate digestive supplement now.

My farrier comes tomorrow- I'll have him take a look at it.

Thanks for adding the links! I'll have to take a look!

FrogInABlender

10-15-2008, 08:29 PM

...full pasture turnout (but the pasture has very little grass because there are so many horses on it~perfect for my boy)...

I had to comment on this because this kind of pasture is definitely NOT perfect for your boy, or any IR horse. Overgrazed pastures are stressed pastures and according to www.safergrass.org (http://www.safergrass.org), stressed grasses actually produce MORE sugars than lush thick pastures. In their article Forage and Pasture Management for Laminitic Horses it is stated that "...Overgrazing to limit intake is not recommended. Because the stem base of grass is a storage organ for NSC, short stubble may contain higher concentrations..." So don't be lulled into a false sense of security just because there's very little grass in the pasture. The only really safe place for an IR or Cushings horse is a bare dirt lot.

walkinthewalk

10-15-2008, 08:34 PM

Here is Duke on 03-01-07, Just before he had the sudden weight loss. He was 19 years and 5 months. Duke was 16 in my avatar. Doesn't even look like the same horse.

After I took this picture I thought his color was odd, even though it was already in shedding stage. Duke is a true liver chestnut and his coat had an odd orange tint, but again, I brushed it off. Evidently the unbalance in his metabolism threw his coat color off.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/PAWALKER/Dukemuttonwithers03-01-07.jpg

This is Duke on 06-02-07. I had already started his recommended diet and was just getting him started on magnesium, which helps reduce the cresty neck.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/PAWALKER/Duke06-02-07001.jpg

This is Duke on 10-14-07, two weeks after his 20th birthday and stablized. Although his hooves are not making the progress I'd like to see. The barefoot farrier said he would check in on me every six months unless I needed him sooner. That will be in November.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/PAWALKER/The%20Boys10-14-07/Duke10-14-07.jpg

This is Duke's head on 09-30-08 because no one was around to take our picture - lol
This is our first ride since 01-01-07. It was a tearful event for me because Duke was back to being full of fire, heart and work ethic. He actually reached for his bit when I positioned the bridle. We are saddle-less and Duke is telling me he is done resting after our pretty good climb up to the ridge. He asked to hit a lick or two on the road so I let him and he never stumbled once - also telling me that his hooves have made tremendous progress, but he still needs boots if I ever take him off our land. I won't shoe him again, but that's another story - lol lol
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/PAWALKER/Dukehead09-30-08.jpg

What folks can't see are the benign tumors behind his right jawbone and in his "adam's apple" area. They showed up when the EMS exploded. My regular vet explained they are a result of the EMS and they are inoperable. So I watch them closely and pray they don't grow. They do slightly increase in size in the spring and summer, but reduce in fall and winter.

I put Duke on a brand new Sugar Balancer product this summer and it has been a huge help in keeping these tumors down in size, although they don't disappear. It has also helped in keeping his hooves cooler. It is an all natural product.

The one piece of advice I can give to anyone who wonders if their horse is, or might be heading toward being metabolic, is to keep a diary.

No matter how quirky the "thing", no matter how inconsequential (like Duke's odd color at shedding time that he never had before), write everything down and be sure to write the dates.

You aren't out anything except your time. But if something is going on with your horse, you can establish a pattern of happenings that will not only help you "see the light", but will also help your vet, if they have an interest.

From my own experience with two vets, they don't seem to want to bother with these horses, unless they can quickly fix it with a shot. I think that is because they are not educated near as well as they should be on metabolic matters. They don't have the right answers, therefore they don't want to get involved.

Same with farriers and shoers; if they don't know the "whys" they walk away without saying a word after they finish the horse. They know something is wrong but if they point it out, I think they become afraid the horse owner will ask too many questions they don't have answers to.

lovesfortune

10-15-2008, 08:44 PM

Very informative thread. Gives me things to think about and watch for with my two easy keepers.

medicine hat

10-15-2008, 08:52 PM

I know, I have read that as well, about the stressed grasses having more sugars.
but what type of grasses? I forgot to add....in the link I gave to integral horse, the article/show I listened to was in the "everyday horsekeeping" section under Perfect Grass, parts 1 & 2.
the "pasture" (10 acre dry lot) he is in now floods once (or in this year, 4 times) a year, which brings in many types of vegetation. which they quickly eat to nothing, or they don't like it & leave it alone. the owner hasn't been able to reseed it because of the flooding...she's tried. but it has been my ACTUAL experience that he is in fit shape in these conditions, I am not saying it's right or wrong, or if another horse would react the same, just sharing my experience. I am no expert and cannot fully understand the whys & hows of his health improving, but he was in terrible shape where I boarded him before (a large full grown pasture) and has improved under these conditions. thank heavens! :)
he didn't show any signs of trouble until he was about 8 years old, 4 years after being on my friends farm~it seems like his body could tolerate it for awhile, then it broke down. his laminitis came on in October, during rainy season, about a couple weeks after they started feeding the hay. In his case, I think it was the 3rd cutting alfalfa hay that triggered the laminitis. but they are all individuals.
he has always been barefoot, and according to the farrier the consistent excersize has helped his feet recover & stay sound as well. I am really a firm believer in excersize being the best thing for us now!!!

Gypsy Rose

10-15-2008, 08:54 PM

He,he! I'll see what my farrier has to say about that hoof tomorrow, lol!

Could get interesting.

As far as the different coat color, I thought Gypsy's coat wasn't quite the color it should be, nor the right texture last winter. However, that wouldn't be a fair test, because she wasn't getting her digestive aids. I guess we'll see what this year brings.

walkinthewalk

10-15-2008, 08:55 PM

"I heard on a radio show http://www.integralhorse.com/ that the grass seed used in pastures now was developed mainly for cattle, to increase weight as quickly as possible, and when horses get these grasses in their pastures it can cause some of the insulin problems that we are hearing so much about now."

MedicineHat, you're entire post is great, but I am SO GLAD you posted this! Some of us oldtimers and long timers in horses have been saying that for a long time. And you have a link too --- Oh Happy Happy Day!:clap:

"Thing is, I didn't notice anything off about her."

Gypsy Rose, Joker's issues happened after Duke, so I watched him like a hawk. He was never off in the pasture. I did notice that he would ouch across the driveway stones when I walked him to the far side of the barn for baths. I had also had his shoes pulled earlier than usual when I realized I would have to lay my shoer off, so some of those ouchies may have been from wearing shoes most of the year.

Joker doesn't "ouch" on the driveway anymore. He quit asking to walk on the grass a few months back. He has a lot more sole depth than Duke has and his hooves have really toughened up.

I am done rattling. It is 10:00PM, I have to work Thursday and 4:45 AM rolls around early. Hopefully I will be able to check in here once or twice from work.

I appreciate all the information sharing. I hope this helps those that aren't sure or aren't familiar with these metabolic disorders.

Gypsy Rose

10-15-2008, 08:59 PM

One of the things I find strange about Gypsy is the fact that she really didn't seem to like eating larger amounts of grain at all, and she's even the same way with the beet pulp, though a little better.

If I didn't know better, I'd say my horse was smarter than me! Maybe she doesn't realize beet pulp isn't grain?:D

As far as the hooves, Gypsy'a actually never seemed ouchy, except maybe this last time after her trim- but that could also have been short strided from arthritis- no way of telling. It was a damp day- I know my tendinitis was acting up.

Howwever, you've made me wonder now.

Peggy Sue

10-16-2008, 04:35 AM

not all rings in the hoof are lamanitis rings any change in diet, illness, stress anything can cause them depend in how fast her hooves grow that ring could be where you took her OFF of the Merit and put her on the Beet Pulp

Peggy Sue

10-16-2008, 06:03 AM

Mandisue it depends on what you have aval to you... I would go with 2lb of a ration balancer and keep her alittle thin NOT SKINNY ... with a growing baby you dont' want them heavy you want to be able to see their ribs when they move... if a ration balancer alone won't keep her there add some beet pulp or alfalfa pellets/cubes for extra calories...

mandisue

10-16-2008, 06:18 AM

AHHH I think I just had a break through, the more I read of what you guys were saying, I think Buttercup may be IR? The one website talks about the horse drinking a lot, I have to fill up my 40 gal tub everyday, with susey it was like every 3 days. She drinks like crazy! AND her toes have always grown quicker than her heel, ( laminitus?) and she's very sensitive without shoes. She's got lots of fatty tissue, and will only loose a bit of weight when exercised a lot... HMMMM I think mom is going to look into some different foods for her and then have the vet check her.

Peggy Sue

10-16-2008, 06:52 AM

if you give me your zip I can help you but let's start another thread LOL instead of highjacking Ann's

mandisue

10-16-2008, 06:53 AM

Sorry Gypsy Rose! THank you for bringing some light to our overweight problem!!!!!!!!!

Gypsy Rose

10-16-2008, 08:57 AM

No problem, mandisue- the whole idea of this thread is to raise awareness, and IMO, the more informative and helpful threads that branch out from it, the better.

Maybe PeggySue could start a whole new thread on feeding the IR horse- hint, hint!:)

Peggy, that's what I'm thinking with Gypsy's hooves, too- it just never hurts to be aware just in case, lol!

However, I'm thinking you're right, with the limited digestion going early into the winter along with the senior feed- thank goodnees I wasn't feeding her much of it- though 1 1/2 lbs could have still been detrimental if she was full blown IR!

Peggy Sue

10-16-2008, 09:01 AM

Boy Ann yuo wanna light a fire and stir some shit today huh LOL

I will put one together later and get it started ... but IMO all horses should be treated as IR just like all human SHOULD watch thier nutrition and carb levels ... I wish I could be as strict with MY DIET as I am with my horses LOL

Gypsy Rose

10-16-2008, 09:02 AM

Thanks Peggy, that would be great!

WashingtonBay

10-16-2008, 09:52 AM

Boy Ann yuo wanna light a fire and stir some shit today huh LOL

Peggy... We don't have any filters for language and don't want to have to put them on... try to censor yourself :nono::innocent:

WashingtonBay

10-16-2008, 10:00 AM

Her hay has been lightly rained on, so hopefully, that helped cut the sugars down a bit (fructan levels).

I read this and it gives me pause... I mean. I wouldn't buy hay that's been rained on, because the far greater hazard is MOLD.

But beyond that, assuming it didn't mold, would rained on hay really be lower in sugars? From what I know about soaking hay to remove sugar, you have to soak the hay and then pour the water off and rinse it. The sugar ends up in the water. It would take a lot of rain to actually wash away the sugar.

Gypsy Rose

10-16-2008, 10:30 AM

You might have a point there- I think there's a lot of controversy on this.

As for Gypsy's hay, I didn't have much choice this year- I end up picking each flake apart carefully, So far, I haven't found any mold- but I do know this hay is tougher, which I'm not too thrilled with, lol!

walkinthewalk

10-16-2008, 10:31 AM

Every horse's metabolism is different and thus reacts differently to prescribed, diets, supplements, and even meds.

I was so fortunate that the first attempt at formulating a diet for Duke was on target the first time.

Because of the frustration I felt when neither of my vets could offer up anything more than "watch his diet, take him off sweet feed (he wasn't even on sweet feed), and give him a grass mix hay (I have never fed anything but grass/mix), I thought I would share what Duke and all four of my horses get. I also feel that feeding a "normal" horse the same basic feed as a metabolic horse is going to do more GOOD than harm:)

Base feed for all four horses consists of:

1. Stablized, calcium fortified pelleted rice bran. I prefer pellets because it gives a more palatable volume.

1.1 Rice bran is 20% fat, which is why the one dietician recommended it for Duke due to his sudden and large weight loss. Duke gets 1 pound 2X/day to maintain. The other three get a little less.

2. A high quality pelleted vitamin/mineral supplement (whatever is available within your driving distance).

3. Omega-3 Horseshine

4. All of this is top-dressed with a few splashes of warm canola oil, and water, but not enough to make things mushy because my horses hate mush and won't eat it:innocent:

5. Quality grass/mix hay that I have been buying from a Walking Horse breeder the last five years, who raises his own hay.

Duke and Joker also get:

1. One heaping teaspoon/day of 99% pure magnesium from Designnutrition-equine in Minnesota.

2. One heaping teaspoon every other day of 99% pure Glucosamine/MSM/Chondroitin from Designnutrition-equine in Minnesota.

Duke also gets:

1) 1/8th cup of pure Chastetree, a/k/a Chasteberry, a/k/a Vitex from herbs4horses. I will double that when spring shedding starts.

2) One 1-ounce cup, over-filled, of "Sugar Balancer" from herbs4horses.

3) 1 heaping tablespoon/day of ProdeZyme (probiotic) from Designnutrition-equine in Minnesota.

Because everything is so expensive and also time-consuming to prepare and get it right, I keep everything at the house where it's "temperature controlled" and therefore won't get ruined. The one spare bedroom has expanded from the computer room to an equine dietician room:eek:

Even though Purina has been on my short list for a few years, I switched everyone over to the WellSolve L/S for about 300# worth of testing. I did not like the results:

1. Everyone seemed a little snippier, but it could have been the change in weather.
2. Duke's neck has gotten worse and it shouldn't have because it's Fall.
3. IRON does not show up on L/S guaranteed analysis tag and it should since iron (and high amounts of manganese too) can inhibit absorption of much-needed copper & zinc in the metabolic horse.

3.1 My mouth dropped when I saw the results of an independent study that showed the ironPPM in WellSolve L/S to be 886PPM. More than three times the required amount. Allegedly, when someone called Purina to ask why, their response was they put 250PPM into the feed and that the balance comes from whatever else goes into the mix" :eek:

Well hellooo, if that is true, all their "years of research" they tout about on RFD-TV sure didn't teach them much.

I personally did not experience what I just wrote, but given the behavorial change, increase in Duke's cresty neck, and the fact that Purina has annoyed me these past few years anyway, I switched back to the rice bran.

Again, everything is trial and error with these horses, so my ONLY point to this list is to give folks ideas. Someone else may try the WellSolve L/S and be so crazy about it that they tell me I am crazy - lol lol And that's ok because it's whatever works for these horses that keeps them healthy and on track to living a quality life:cowboy:

Edited to correct some spelling -- do we have spell check and I haven't found it?

Peggy Sue

10-16-2008, 11:30 AM

Yes a light rain will SOME of the sugars from the hay and there is no danger as long as it is given ample time to dry BEFORE being baled... even hay that has not been rained on will mold if not allowed to dry properly

http://www.safergrass.org/articles/sugarinhay.html

rather-b-riding

10-16-2008, 02:33 PM

My mare is an easy keeper...I always thought she was pleasantly plump until a good friend pointed out her cresty neck and fat deposits on her butt :doh: (and her grumpy attitude whenever she was asked to work)

I didn't really change her diet until I had her at a friends house overnight on a grass pasture and within days after that she suffered a severe case of laminitis...at that point I realized I needed to make some serious changes. I now have her on Safechoice by Nutrena, still not the best but better than what she was getting (sweet feed) , she has lost around 50lbs and is looking and feeling much better. She moves out better and her overall attitude has greatly improved as well.
I have not had her oficially diagnosed but am treating her as a horse with a metabolic syndrome problem. She has maintained her weight on much less grain and more exercise than she was used to!:)

Peggy Sue

10-16-2008, 02:39 PM

rather-b-riding

10-16-2008, 03:13 PM

I really should take total control over her feed but right now I depend on BO to order and have it delivered to the farm and Nutrena is the only one available at the place she orders from. :(

Gypsy Rose

10-16-2008, 06:27 PM

medicine hat

10-16-2008, 07:34 PM

that is interesting about the hooves, it makes sense. like the rings inside a tree.
for what it's worth, the barn owner where I board uses Safechoice by Nutrena for the horses that need it (working,older, pregnant or nursing mares, babies, ill or injured). otherwise it is just grass mix hay, salt & mineral blocks, and none of her horses currently show or have previously shown any signs of metabolic syndrome. she's been in business 25 years, there have been 49 horses on the property at one point, but that fluctuates depending on boarders...
I don't know any statistics on the nutrients so check these out yourself, but just stating an observation :)

Gypsy Rose

10-16-2008, 08:13 PM

A good reason for PeggySue to put up a thread on nutrition, which hopefully, she'll do soon. I think that will help a lot in helping us make informative choices.

Most of what I've learned about feeding metabolic and insulin resistant horses, I've been learning from her, lol!

walkinthewalk

10-17-2008, 05:35 AM

Kind of of topic, yet not.

Gypsy's feet were trimmed today.The farrier told me those rings I'm seeing are from dietarry changes. According to him, there is a difference in how the rings look between injury, dietary changes and laminitis- that's how he made that determination.

That is true. When I moved three of my horses from PA to SoCal there was a tremendous metamorphosis in all of their hooves, and then again when we moved from SoCal to Middle Tennessee. Along with feed & hay changes, their environment change was massive as we lived in the low desert where grass doesn't exist unless one can afford to water several times a day.

I bought the fourth horse, Joker, two years ago. His home had been 92 miles NE of me. There was a "change line" in his hooves as a result of the difference in feed.

When he went into starch overload last year and the hoof started growing down, along with the "dished event", he had a big sick ring that didn't come close to resembling the "change in feed line".

The vet thought Rusty had sucked up a bee when he drank water a couple years ago because the sting mark was very evident inside his mouth. I was home and know that it happened within 30 minutes of me calling the vet. Rusty's face had swollen to half again its normal size.

The stress of that and the drugs he had to have caused "sick rings" to eventually come down his hooves.

From my experiences, the visual differences between change in feed, stress like Rusty's sting, and mild laminitis can vary from subtle to clearly evident.

I am not that well-versed on these matters because, thankfully, I haven't had much experience. I gotta say that I have had a whole lot more sick issues these past 10 years than I ever had in my entire life of being around horses.

Being 61 and having become "knowledgeably" involved in horses since I was 10, I continue to shake my head in amazement and ponder what is different. I only think I know some of the answers.

1) The grass seeds that were developed to feed cattle and fatten them faster.

2) The grain seeds that were developed for the same reason and also go into our horses feeds that are oat & corn based.

3) Given the dog food scare a year ago, what "additives" are in any of the grain & supplement choices we feed our horses?

4) What's in the water these days? Three of my horses have been on someone's city water for the last 10 years ---- has that been a contributing factor?

5) Air pollution.

6) Changes in living environment for the majority of horses. My first Keeper horses all ran on lush pastures of 50 - 100 acres and only got a handful of grain "to keep them coming in at night and keep the grass belly off them". The 23 acres we own today is a major event; "back then" it was regarded as "some city slicker wanting to play farmer".

7) Shots were unheard of back then --- do they contribute in some small way?

8) Going a little further back, Coggins was also un-heard of.

I could make myself crazy trying to sort it all out as it relates to a horse's well-being. Horse health management is a lot more complex in this day and age. I would not want to be just entering into horse ownership because some of these issues can be overwhelming when coupled with having to learn just basic horse care and training principles:deadhorse:

Peggy Sue

10-17-2008, 06:30 AM

Walkin that is very well said!!

I have also been in horse most of my life and our horses are so pampered now that it is unreal my parents laugh at me about the way I treat mine...

Gypsy Rose

10-17-2008, 07:24 AM

I could say the same- I still have older farm type people looking at me like I'm crazy- go ahead and tell these type of people that it's NOT okay to have a fat and sassy horse, lol! Or that not every horse needs grain- shhesh- good way to start a heated debate in these parts, lol!

Peggy Sue

10-17-2008, 07:36 AM

IrisGreen

10-17-2008, 01:44 PM

I have been reading on IR horses on the other forum. Muffin is a half draft so I try to keep a close eye on his weight.

All he gets are alfalfa cubes - That's it aside from the monthly dose of Sand clear.

Alfalfa cubes around 12 pounds x2 a day.

I recently upped his feed for winter to 14 pound feedings twice a day. This was a bad idea and he quickly gained weight and a pot belly. So, he is back to 12 pounds x2 a day.

Question:

I went to TSC yesterday and wanted to check in to the forage extenders or horse feeds. I know NOTHING about this stuff. So, I talked with a lady and figured I would try Dumor Equistages. It didn't say anything about energy or gaining weight like some of the other bags did so I figured it was just a maintenance type feed/supplement.

It says to feed 5-8 pounds for a light worked horse. When I opened the bag it smelled sweet! It didn't say anything about sweet on the bag or sugar levels. I didn't want sweet feed. Do they all smell sweet? There is no nutritional guide on the bag and no sugar rating so I had no idea it was going to be sweet.

I did give Muffin 1 pound on top of 11 pounds of cubes this morning. I figure I can give it a shot but I wont feed him 5-8 pounds a day if it's sweet or full of sugars. I guess I will have to look it up on there site. grrrr!

What feed/forage extender do you feed a horse that you would like to keep on an IR type diet? The lady told me something about another brand of feed that they carry at a different feed store. I guess they had one specifically for IR horses and it was by .....EM or ER brand name? Something like that. I will have to go by the other feed store and see if I can find what the lady was talking about. She couldn't remember ether.

No wonder people get so confused over horse feeds in a bag. They don't really tell you what is in it just what they think it would be good to feed for.

OK, So, I would like to know a good low sugar feed to give to Muffin :) He gains weight easy and I am starting to worry about his front feet getting bigger and dishing. He is a growing boy at 2 1/2 years old but he carries so much weight on his front hooves and they take after the draft horse hooves. They want to flare and get wide. So, I worry about the risks of draft horses, IR and other issues having to do with diet and hoof health. I would like to cut him back on the alfalfa but I need some ideas on low sugar feeds.

WashingtonBay

10-17-2008, 02:03 PM

Heck Ann it is a good way to start a debate ANYWHERE ..LOL think back to when I first joined the OTHER forum!!!

Some of the ones here still swear by grain based feeds and think their horses NEED it ...

Old habits die hard... and you know what? Old habits still work for a lot of people, and their horses. :) Ration balancers are a good solution for a lot of people. But they are just one of many perfectly valid choices out there. Carry on!

walkinthewalk

10-17-2008, 05:09 PM

IRISGREEN,

Most of us that have metabolic horses (I-R/EMS, or full blown Cushings), do not feed anything that is oat and/or corn based because those things are very high in NSC (non-structural carbohydrates).

I THINK an acceptable NSC value for a metabolic horse is + 12%; but the less the better. Non-structural carbohydrates are right up there with the value-less calories in a box of donuts - lol

ANY amount of molasses is out too. Read the "ingredients" below the "guaranteed analysis". If molasses is called out, that means it is in the feed in an un-determined amount that can vary from bag-to-bag.

Even the guaranteed analysis is not necessarily what you are getting.

A good quality grass/mix hay is preferred over any type of legume hay.

I posted a link somewhere up above to Dr. Kellon's Yahoo equine cushings group. You can get a lot of good help there.

Hoof care with these horses is very important too. Don't let them get too far overdue for trims or re-sets. Especially in the spring.

I am not particularly a fan of Dumor feeds, but maybe they have come up with something good. I will be interested to hear what the other TSC store says to you.

Just as an FYI, when our TSC had it's grand opening 4 years ago, the TSC district rep said that Dumor is made "right at a Purina factory". I said "Purina MAKES Dumor?!?!?"

He sheeplishly replied "no---------- Dumor only uses a Purina plant; Purina is not involved in the creation or production of the feed."

Just in case someone tells you otherwise. Now that was four years ago, and maybe by now Purina does have a hand in their feed, but ask the question point-blank:cowboy:

I hope this helps you some, maybe others will have more and better help:)

Gypsy Rose

10-17-2008, 07:11 PM

IrisGreen: So far as a forage extender, soaked shredded beet pulp is a good choice, especially if you can get it without the molasses- otherwise, rinse until the water runs clear. You can replace up to 40% of a horse's forage needs with beet pulp (if you can get them to eat that much)!:D

IrisGreen

10-17-2008, 07:30 PM

Thank you Walkinthewalk and Gypsy Rose :) I have feed him beet pulp with no malaises before and he will eat it wet but he likes it if I put cubes in it. lol He will eat anything with cubes. I don't feed him anything with malaises, oats, or any sweet feed. He gets cubes for meals and cubes for treats. He loves cubes.

I gave him that pound of Dumor this morning and it didn't seem to make him spunky or anything. I was just wanting to see if it gave him any energy. I only gave him a pound but considering he doesn't ever get anything sweet I figured it the Dumor did have a lot of sugar it would spunk him up a little.

I'm not going to feed it tonight because I just don't like the fact that it smells like it has molasses in it but doesn't say on the bag. So, I would rather just go to the other feed store and find the one for IR horses so I don't have to worry about it.

He would love it if I gave him beet pulp and some pelleted feed for half his meal and cubes for the other half. I just have to find a feed that I wont have to worry about all the added sugars and NSC's. He loves slopping around in a pan of wet beet pulp! lol

I will let you know what I find that IR specific feed at the other store. Thanks again for the great ideas :)

Gypsy Rose

10-17-2008, 07:54 PM

IrisGreen: If your horse gains weight so easily, why would you need to feed a commercial feed at anywhere from 3-6 lbs. a day or more? Lots easier to just stick with your cubes and beet pulp and add a good multi vitamin/mineral or ration balancer.

IrisGreen

10-17-2008, 10:43 PM

I though a forage extender is the feed in bags and I also thought a ration balancer was the same thing. What is the difference between them? Sorry, as I said I don't know anything about special feeds other then a vitamin/mineral supplement like VitaPlus.

I was thinking the alfalfa was not good for drafts or half drafts so it might be a good idea to cut him back. But, I would have to add a low sugar feed/forage extender instead of just giving him less cubes. I was trying to feed him the same amount/pounds per day but substitute some of it with some kind of other "safe" low sugar feed.

I don't know if I am right or not? So, can I just substitute a few pounds for beet pulp and add a vitamin/mineral supplement like VitaPlus and that would hold his current weight?

What is a ration balancer? Sorry for all the questions.

I will re-read this all in the morning and visit some more sites. I need to learn more about all these things. Sorry, I'm tiered and not understanding it all right now. It gets confusing with all the different options and what to feed/not feed. I will read up some more tomorrow when my brain is working and not so confused :)

Sundays Man

10-18-2008, 08:46 AM

My girl Mira is more of a vacuum fern. She can look at a blade of fescue and gain 2 pounds. Diane and I have just started to become really concerned for her. We have had her only 3 or 4 months and knew she was an easy keeper when we got her. She was somewhat overweight at the time. Since we have had her, she has been on pasture with just a very little hay at night when we bring them in. She is much too large for a young horse, much less a 17 year old. Easy keepers, contrary to what we thought, are not easy to keep. We have been discussing this a lot lately. We know that more exercise is needed and we are both going to work on that to try and help. We are also checking on diets, supplements and the like.

To top it off, Diane's horse, Buck, is 6 years old and also an easy keeper. He is not obese yet by any means, but he has put on weight since we moved him to our farm from the boarding stables and put him on pasture too. He had very little grass for grazing at the stables. We need to nip his weight in the bud before it becomes a problem also.

I called Mira a "fat girl" in one of the videos I posted a while back and Mr. JackieB esq jumped all over that one. I'm still paying for that. I told him I meant it only in the strictest biblical sense, but he was relentless.

A grazing muzzle has been ordered for Mira and right now we feel that monitoring Buck's feeding routine and more exercise for both will help.

We are taking this seriously and know we have to do some different things than what we have been doing. It would be great if we could just turn them out to pasture in the morning a bring them in at evening and everybody remains healthy and trim. ARRRRG, not going to happen. We will start bringing them in earlier and be careful what and how much they get while in the paddock and run in area. There is VERY little grass in the paddock area.

We are open to suggestions and help. :)

walkinthewalk

10-18-2008, 09:57 AM

We know that more exercise is needed and we are both going to work on that to try and help. We are also checking on diets, supplements and the like.

He had very little grass for grazing at the stables. There is VERY little grass in the paddock area.

We are open to suggestions and help. :)

I see you are in Georgia. Since a LOT of Georgia was in an exceptional or worse drought last year, and I think parts of your state still are in some degree of drought status this year, that is part of your "easy keeper" answer as to why Buck gained weight and Mira can't lose it:(:(

The shorter the grass the more sugars (fructans) are in it. It's like us eating a dozen donuts for breakfast, lunch, and a midnight snack every day:eek::eek:

IDEALLY horse grass should be kept at 6 inches, but we can't always adhere to that bit of idealism:(

That is how we are pretty sure my 12 yo went into starch over-load in 2007. I am in southern Middle Tennessee, so also felt the pangs of "exceptional drought". The Boys were plucking my threadbare pasture of green grass as soon as it shot up thru the ground. Again, chuck full of fructans:(

The barefoot farrier that mentors me, said he saw a lot of laminitis and horses possibly becoming metabolic last year because of our drought conditions.

If you have it in you to muzzle your horses and are able to monitor them every day, I tip my hat to you. I can't do that. Muzzling would be good for turnout, and then feed them both a good quality grass/mix hay, as opposed to feeding them legume-type hays that are not recommended for metabolic horses or those that are heading that way.

What is in my favor, is that I currently have nearly 13 acres of pasture open that they can't get from Point "A" to Point "B" without walking up or down some kind of hill. We don't have rocks, but nothing is flat here; they get more of a workout foraging every day, than I could give them in an hour's worth of daily riding - lol lol

Which segway's me into my next thought: From everything I am hearing, it appears that we can't ride all that sugar weight off our horses. Most of us don't have the time to ride every day for hours anyway. While the riding sure is good for them and us, I almost feel like it is an exercise (no pun intended:) in futility - lol lol

Kinda like me, who needs to shed 25 pounds. I don't eat a 1/3 of what I used to eat and I work as many or more hours outdoors as when younger; yet the weight is there in the most un-complimentary of places. I would need to wire my jaw shut for a few months and probably would gain all this un-sightly "stuff" back 4 months after they took the screws out of my jaws anyway - lollol

Kind-of a poor & homely analogy, but you "git muh drift" as my ex used to say - lol lol

IrisGreen

10-18-2008, 10:24 AM

Some times I hate it that all I have is a dry lot for the most part and Muffin doesn't get to roam on a few acres and graze. But, then again besides the lack of exercise that I can help with, his intake is totally up to me to provide. So, this allows me to strictly monitor and change his diet for his body condition.

I'm sure it would be much harder to control on a horse that has free access to pasture. Though your feed bills would be lower the control and balancing of feed vs exercise would be much harder to regulate. Especially on a horse with metabolic conditions or an air fern.

I read the other thread about Ration Balancers. I guess the difference is a ration balancer lets you feed less but gives all the right vitamins, minerals, acids and things to complement your current feed. A Forage Extender is basically the same thing but not so concentrated so it can be fed in larger amounts to sustain a horse when there is little forage or low quality forage that needs to be supplemented.

I guess I need a low sugar ration balancer, beet pulp and a bucket. lol :) Substitute 40% of his cubes for beet pulp and add a pound or so of ration balancer and that should be a good start. It will lower the alfalfa cubes intake but not compromise the nutrients intake that he needs to stay healthy.

Good idea?