New horses pedigree

[mandascrazycowboy]

So this is our new horses pedigree on his sires side crazymanda will post his dams info later.




http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pretty+royal+jack

[Remali]

Some really good breeding there!

[missyfritz]

Ooh, Two Eyed Jack...I love him! I used to lease a Two Eyed Jack mare and she was awesome. ;)

[luv2show]

Ditto to the Two Eyed Jack! Love him, he's in Tanners pedigree, too!

[mandascrazycowboy]

ok so we added our new horse to allbreedpedigree.com so here is the linnk to danny gus hancock with both sire and dams. So basically his whole pedigree.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/danny+gus+hancock

[CrazyManda]

Just wanted to bump this up now that we have both sire and dam info. I'll try to get the missing info from the AQHA later.

[Tiz]

Two Eyed Jack is 5 generations back, guys. What else do you like about his breeding?

[zoel_222]

If the horse was from a few generations back I'd say he would have some pretty great bloodlines.... but there's just a bunch of nobody's up until like the 5th generation. Looking at his papers you wouldn't even see those names on there. You pretty much don't count anything older than the 4th generation. My pony has the freakin Darley Arabian in her lines but that was generations ago people....

[Cat]

I don't know much about QH lines & the only ones I'm familiar with are 4 or more generations back, so I'm no help. Sorry.

[Equine_Woman]

Yeah, add me to the not blown over group. These papers wouldn't make me look twice at a horse. IF this is ya'lls stud your going to have to do a lot of campaigning to attract the customers, cause the papers won't do it. Just my opinion.

[Tiz]

There's an old saying that goes like this. Breed the best, to the best, and hope for the best.
If you keep this horse a stud, you'll wind up with babies that you can't get any money for. You won't make your feed bills back.

[outriding01]

You can't ride papers... or vertical pasterns, and that seems to be about all you've got on your hands....

[Remali]

Well, whatever his bloodlines are, he is a nice horse. Apparently a few people on here have some royally-bred horses with far superior lines than anyone else's horses.... It's too bad when people can't be happy for others and not get snarky and snobby. Like someone did say tho....you can't ride papers, so then why are they so preachy about "names" not being up close in a pedigree? Hypocritical much? :rolleyes: I'm sure their horses are absolutely perfect too with no flaws at all.

[elevenelevenxo]

Well, whatever his bloodlines are, he is a nice horse. Apparently a few people on here have some royally-bred horses with far superior lines than anyone else's horses.... It's too bad when people can't be happy for others and not get snarky and snobby. Like someone did say tho....you can't ride papers, so then why are they so preachy about "names" not being up close in a pedigree? Hypocritical much? :rolleyes: I'm sure their horses are absolutely perfect too with no flaws at all.

Agreed, 100%.

This board has been getting awfully quick to pounce and gang up on people lately.

[ownedby7horses]

Well if he's a riding horse, he's a really pretty one. If he's a stud, not so much. I don't want to offend, and obviously you can do what you want, but he's a mediocre stallion, but he'd make a fantastic gelding. If you're trying to sell his papers to people, they're not so impressive, everything proven is 5 generations back. If you're going to use this guy as a stud, you are going to have to market the crap outta him. I don't believe that little open shows are going to do it for a stud (most of those shows don't even allow studs here) and they are not there for "marketing", but this is just my opinion.
Just hope that you don't think Im being snotty or rude or anything else. I'm trying to be as gentle as possible here. I think he's pretty but that's not going to make the stud. Again, If you're going to make money on him like you plan to, you're going to have to market him... a lot. Little open shows aren't likely to do it, just my opinion. If you were to take him to some AQHA shows, and he was to win in something (besides halter, he doesn't look like a halter horse) then you have something to market and money to be made. He looks like he'd make a deadly reiner, honestly. He can spin and roll back quite nicely. He's built more like a reiner too in my opinion.
I, again, hope I didn't offend you. You asked what we thought, so here's what I think...if you're not going to market him properly, geld him. He'd make a sweet and gorgeous gelding. Again I also know (as well as everyone else on here) that you're going to do your own thing, whether you agree with anyone on here or not.
I don't think your horses bloodlines are so fantastic, sorry.

*side note*
Of course everyone is going to think they're horse is better, that's life. I think my horse is better than everyones horse, but I am completely aware that I'm the only one who thinks that. Do what you want with him, you will anyways! Good luck with him.

[Equine_Woman]

Well, whatever his bloodlines are, he is a nice horse. Apparently a few people on here have some royally-bred horses with far superior lines than anyone else's horses.... It's too bad when people can't be happy for others and not get snarky and snobby. Like someone did say tho....you can't ride papers, so then why are they so preachy about "names" not being up close in a pedigree? Hypocritical much? :rolleyes: I'm sure their horses are absolutely perfect too with no flaws at all.

Well he asked what we thought of the bloodlines. I told him what I thought. Has nothing to do with anything other than that. And just for kickers, as far as breeding goes, I think you need a bit more than what this stud has.

I know you're offended by all this Remali, and I respect that. . but I'm offended at the way they are going about this as well. I've bit my tongue so much about the posts they post that it bleeds when I see their name pop up in a thread. . . I don't feel that way about many people on here. . .and I did that before I even remember who they were from Horse.com. I realize they are going to do what they are going to do but they need to realize, not everyone thinks its a great plan. We don't get a vote but maybe we represent the public they are planning to breed to. . In fact anytime I've had anything to say to them (which was only once, in regards to a safer way of tieing) I took it to PMs, so I wouldn't embarass them. They didn't even acknowledge there was a problem.

In my opinion the great thing about forums is the wealth of knowledge and different ideas we all have and the ability to learn from all of you and hopefully improve my horses's lives and training because of it. But I don't see them using the forum in that way. As WB said in another thread quite eloquently, it's becoming quite a spectacle. . .

Anyways, that's just my opinion. I don't like having it, but I do. . .

[elevenelevenxo]

I have to wonder how different the conversation would go if it were taking place in a face-to-face setting, versus behind computer screens. I have a feeling there would be a bit more tact in the way a lot of things are presented.

My opinion lays in the breed the best of the best to the best, and hope for the best addage....but I realize honey catches more flies than vinegar. I just think people can be a lot less rude....not that much has been said in this particular thread, but in general....when people start arguing on here, it gets pretty nasty and develops a pretty negative name for this forum.

[Equine_Woman]

I have to wonder how different the conversation would go if it were taking place in a face-to-face setting, versus behind computer screens. I have a feeling there would be a bit more tact in the way a lot of things are presented.

My opinion lays in the breed the best of the best to the best, and hope for the best addage....but I realize honey catches more flies than vinegar. I just think people can be a lot less rude....not that much has been said in this particular thread, but in general....when people start arguing on here, it gets pretty nasty and develops a pretty negative name for this forum.

Good advice in life as well as here. I'll remember to bit my tongue next time again!! My apologies.

[ownedby7horses]

I agree with what EW said. Everything I said, I stand behind as it's my opinion, but that's the beauty of free speech, and free thinking, not everyone has to agree with me. If everyone in the world agreed on everything, life would be pretty boring. I, put plainly, don't think this horse is stallion material...not at all. There are a lot nicer studs out there, who are already proven, who aren't breeding right now. I think that Sunny would make a great gelding.

ETA: I've said what I wanted too, I'm done. I tried to be nice and not rude or offensive, but if it came off that way, I'm sorry.

[elevenelevenxo]

EW, I don't think you've said much that's been out of line (at least that I've seen), so no need to apologize. But snarky comments on the horse's conformation in a thread asking about pedigree opinions is just a little rude, IMO. Obviously those points were made in the thread that was closed...no sense in opening that can of worms again. :)

That's what I'm getting at.

[WashingtonBay]

Alright... I'll say one thing, I don't want to have to shut down any more threads.

CrazyCouple.... I have a bit of advice for you. I offered it to you on the last thread too, in different words but here it is again:

This horse's papers are not going to impress most and you should have known that. You want to impress us? Do something with this horse. Train him, show him, take a couple years to do that. Be successful with him, learn how to manage and campaign him, and see if there's a market for him then. Present yourselves as if you know what you're doing with him and aren't the rig everyone whispers and shakes their head about when you drive in to the show grounds. Get it together.

You should already know that there are considerable critics on this board who think you've bitten off more than you can chew here if you think you can own and keep a stallion on a shoestring budget with limited skills, and be successful simply because he has testicles.

You should have known that flapping his pedigree at us will not change the basic perception people have of you. The problem, in my humble opinion, is not the horse.

[WashingtonBay]

EW, I don't think you've said much that's been out of line (at least that I've seen), so no need to apologize. But snarky comments on the horse's conformation in a thread asking about pedigree opinions is just a little rude, IMO. Obviously those points were made in the thread that was closed...no sense in opening that can of worms again. :)

That's what I'm getting at.

Each thread is not in a vacuum.

It's true I don't want to be known as a board where everyone pounces on anyone who owns a stallion and wants to breed him. I really don't.

But I do think it's OK for people to speak up for ideals and have standards. I also don't want to be a board where all anyone ever says is "oooh pretty!" even when they see a train wreck coming.

But lets try to find common ground by sticking to the topic at hand. Let's stick to you guys arguing more about the horse and horsemanship.... less about the quality of how we're all arguing. Let me do that part.

[oursarge]

Alright... I'll say one thing, I don't want to have to shut down any more threads.

CrazyCouple.... I have a bit of advice for you. I offered it to you on the last thread too, in different words but here it is again:

This horse's papers are not going to impress most and you should have known that. You want to impress us? Do something with this horse. Train him, show him, take a couple years to do that. Be successful with him, learn how to manage and campaign him, and see if there's a market for him then. Present yourselves as if you know what you're doing with him and aren't the rig everyone whispers and shakes their head about when you drive in to the show grounds. Get it together.

You should already know that there are considerable critics on this board who think you've bitten off more than you can chew here if you think you can own and keep a stallion on a shoestring budget with limited skills, and be successful simply because he has testicles.

You should have known that flapping his pedigree at us will not change the basic perception people have of you. The problem, in my humble opinion, is not the horse.


The only thing I have to say is what WB said.

[Remali]

It wasn't you Equine Woman, it was a couple others. Well-said.

[elevenelevenxo]

Each thread is not in a vacuum.

It's true I don't want to be known as a board where everyone pounces on anyone who owns a stallion and wants to breed him. I really don't.

But I do think it's OK for people to speak up for ideals and have standards. I also don't want to be a board where all anyone ever says is "oooh pretty!" even when they see a train wreck coming.

But lets try to find common ground by sticking to the topic at hand. Let's stick to you guys arguing more about the horse and horsemanship.... less about the quality of how we're all arguing. Let me do that part.

Good god, I've been reamed before for supposed "unrelated" remarks in threads. I guess we pick and choose here.

[WashingtonBay]

eleven... I'm doing the best I can here. It'd be a lot easier if you didn't choose here and now to pitch your own little hissy-fit. What I said was not really about you, or even really critical of you.

[elevenelevenxo]

LOL ok WB :) Ok.

[WashingtonBay]

:)

[Kaitlyn]

Agreed 110% with EW and WB.

[CrazyManda]

These little open shows around here are how pretty much EVERYBODY shows and campaigns their stallions. That's just the best way to do it here. Everybody who owns horses goes to these little shows and we have several different clubs and such here.
We do have some AQHA sanctioned shows that are a couple hours away that we aim on trying to get him into.
As far as papers go I agree that he doesn't have any well known "legends" up close but also that can be a good thing. I think it's better to maybe have a stallion who isn't related to Doc Bar about 20 times.We ARE going to train him, we aren't going to just use him for breeding. He is going to be shown Halter for sure and we are debating on sending him to a guy for cutting training. Reining would be an option with him if we could send him to a trainer close enough.
We already have one person lined up who wants to breed him to her bay QH.
I appreciate the replies that weren't rude, but there weren't too many of those.

[elevenelevenxo]

I definitely say get more training on him (like you said you plan to!), show him a bit, see how he does, and then think about breeding. :)

I don't think it's fair to automatically jump on the bandwagon and say no no no....if you're responsible with it and take the right steps, might not be such a bad situation. My two cents.

[Miracle Whip]

I sort of wonder why you keep posting his pedigree. No one else on here does. It might just be that its the first registered horse you've owned. If so, GREAT! I have never owned a registered horse, probably never will.

My dog has Field champions in her bloodlines 5 generations back, and I don't consider her any better than any other hunting dog. In fact, she is WORSE than a lot of the dogs I know because my husband does not work with her. Its all in the training and handling...

[Tiz]

"I also don't want to be a board where all anyone ever says is "oooh pretty!" even when they see a train wreck coming."

Thank you, WB.

"I'm sure their horses are absolutely perfect too with no flaws at all." Yes, Remali, that's what every breeder should strive for. If they want to be successful anyway.

[miatapony]

well i would like to know more about his blood lines you say cutting ???? i didnt see it but i might be blind to the old school lines ..like i have but im not saying bad. i just dont see it.

[CrazyManda]

This is actually the first time we posted his pedigree info and nope, I've owned other registered horses too..a QH mare and a Paint gelding. We posted Dakotah's grandsire's pedigree info, maybe that's what your thinking of miracle whip. He doesn't have awful bloodlines, we posted to get people's feedback, not to be chewed out. We wanted to hear what people thought he might be good at,etc. I know all this is just everybody's own opinion and a lot of what will determine if he's a good breeding stallion or not will be how we handle it and campaign and get his name out there.

[ownedby7horses]

Well crazymanda, I sure hope that I didn't offend. I'm not saying he's a trainwreck, I'm not saying it won't work, I just think breeding should be put on hold. Let him prove himself in cutting (which he'd also probably be really good at) or reining or something first. There'll always be mares, but put his talents to the test first. Again, this is just my opinion. I am also not saying that his bloodlines are horrible, I just don't recognize anything until his 5th generation. Who knows, maybe he'll be a deadly cutter or reiner and you'll be able to sell his *ahem* services and make some decent money doing it, but please just take your time about it. Like I also said, you're going to do what you want with him anyways, and everybody knows it, but please don't turn a blind eye to the advice that's been given to you from other people in the same industry you are in.

So, I guess since you guys are buying him and going to train him, ride him, breed him, etc. all that's left to say is Congratulations on him, and I hope he's everything you think he is, everything that he can be and do it to his best abilities!

[Miracle Whip]

That could be too. One thing about showing him first is you can see how he will handle himself around distractions and use that information to determine if he has the temperment to make a good stallion.

Breeding anything is a touchy subject. I was told to spay my female dog a while back. Why I have no idea. She is registered and I'd like to have another litter. I don't think its everyone's responsibility to rescue horses and just breed "the best of the best"

You can certainly have a cheaper stallion... my Dad bred his mare to the same AQHA registered stallion. The neighbor charged $25 to breed to him, in the late 1970's. That was cheap even then. Nothing wrong with the stallion at all, nice and quiet and decent enough conformation. If not for Saber, I doubt we would have bred Summer at all.

Although, maybe in the 70's there were not as many backyard breeders.

Oh - I don't know if this is relevant or not, but I have seen a much more mature tone to your posts lately. When you first came on as CrazyManda, right away, I was not impressed with the name and might have judged you accordingly. The more intelligent and knowledgeable you can be, the easier it will be to market your stallion. ;)

[Kaitlyn]

Wow, MW I'm not being sarcastic, I think that's the only smiley I've seen you use lol, your post are becoming much lighter. That's appreciated.

Now Manda, I hope you prove me wrong and actually DO get him PROFESSIONALLY trained and shown, but honestly I don't think it's going to happen. I read your posts (barely, the grammar scares me) and it just reminds me of BYB's because of the image you've put into my head. As WB said, you don't APPEAR you know what you're doing, and that's probably because you talk a lot of smack and never take our advice on here. His pedigree is very mediocre IMHO. I don't recognize anything until the 5th gen which indicates to me that someone manned up and bred a crappy mare to a decent stallion and it's been blah ever since. And his pasterns SCARE me. No horse will be perfect, we all know this but there's much much better out there.

"You should already know that there are considerable critics on this board who think you've bitten off more than you can chew here if you think you can own and keep a stallion on a shoestring budget with limited skills, and be successful simply because he has testicles."

I couldn't have said it ANY better.

[outriding01]

EW, I don't think you've said much that's been out of line (at least that I've seen), so no need to apologize. But snarky comments on the horse's conformation in a thread asking about pedigree opinions is just a little rude, IMO. Obviously those points were made in the thread that was closed...no sense in opening that can of worms again.


Since I'm the only one who said anything about confo, I'm going to assume this was said in my general direction... if not, please correct me. I say what I think, when I think it, and in general, I don't care who it offends. I by no means ever say anything simply for the purpose of being offensive. Anything I say on here, I would say face-to-face. I've always been that way and anyof my friends will acknowledge it. You may think it's snarky, but I think having aproblem with something someone has said and being passive aggressive about it instead of just bringing it straight up to them is pretty snarky. Again, just what I think, and I say what I think. I've been with this forum (starting with horse.com) since October of 2006 and have never had any major problems with anyone so I like to think my way of doing things works just fine. I gave my opinion on the papers, which is that they don't mean as much as a conformational flaw when you're discussing a performance horse, and I stand by that opinion. If you have a problem with it, then how about an open discussion, not just accusatory undertones in a passive aggressive post? Much more productive... again though, my opinion.

Guess I should add that the reason I commented on the legs at all is because of my own, personal experiences. Legs count for way more than papers. My jumper in my avatar was amazing. We competed on the A-circuit very, very successfully together for years. But because of his conformation he ended up with ringbone and had to be retired at the age of 14, the age when showjumpers are usually just coming into their prime. If he had been a stud, some people probably would have just left him to breeding then to try and make money. If he had been a stud I... well, I would have gelded him to begin with because of his flaw. Why would I want to potentially pass that defect on to other horses? So they could breakdown at a young age, but potentially in the hands of someone who didn't love them as much as I loved my horse and didn't care what happened to them after they couldn't do their job anymore? That would be selfish and irresponsible. Cutting and reining are both high impact sports that demand good conformation the same way jumping does if a horse is going to be able to remain sound for the length of their careers. If my horse had been a stud, I could have made a pretty penny on him from his show record alone. I know there are plenty of other irresponsible people out there who wouldn't ask about his ringbone, or wouldn't care. I just think it is irresponsible to look past a horses flaws for the sake of money. I'm sure that with the proper training, he would probably make an excellent reiner or cutter. And he is very cute as well. But with those pasterns, there's all the likeliness in the world that he won't remain sound. And by that time, he may have who knows how many foals on the ground with potentially the same problem. Does that not sound like a mini disaster in the making?

So maybe my comment does seem off topic and "snarky" but atleast I have very good reasoning behind it, backed by personal experience.... I never, ever say anything just for the sake of being a snob.

[elevenelevenxo]

I agree with your stance, outriding, I really do. I didn't mean to offend you, however I was just stating my opinion. I think Crazymanda and her fiance are well aware of what the people here think about their horse conformation-wise.

Annnnddddd that's all I'm saying because I just woke up and really am too sleepy to do this right now. Just know I didn't mean any offense. :p

[Remali]

Well, never mind about my posting my mare's pedigree (I was going to do a post).... I won't now. Not sure why people do not like to talk about pedigrees.....we used to to it all the time (other forum I guess that was).....

I for one do like to discuss bloodlines. Some pedigrees are more halter horses, and others are performance (cutting or reining or whatever the breed may be). The mare I got is foundation QH-bred and I don't see it that often, it can be an interesting thing talking pedigrees IF everyone can remain open-minded.

[WashingtonBay]

Remali.... You're not paying attention to the crux of the issue here. Post yours if you wish. The forum is not being hard on pedigrees, it's being hard on young kids who don't have it enough together to take basic care of the horses they have, who buy some young stallion in the hopes he's going to make them some money. It's the situation, not the pedigree.... for me anyway.

[ownedby7horses]

Remali, I would be interested to see your horses pedigree. I never said this horses (Sunny) pedigree was awful, all I said is I don't recognize any names on it until the 5th generation...that's not a big deal. Papers don't make the horse. There's nothing wrong with discussing a horses pedigree. Just my opinion.
I, honestly, don't give a rats ass if a horse is reg'd or not, some of my best horses were grade horses.

[Remali]

Quote: "You can't ride papers... "

I was just referring to the comments on pedigrees WB. I dunno....I guess a lot of people don't get into pedigrees...I always have. I do agree it doesn't make the horse....and truly if I had to choose between a real nice horse with a no-name pedigree....or a nasty looking horse with top-notch breeding I would go for the one with the good disposition and conformation. Still....some pedigrees do breed true. Oh gosh no, I didn't mean you ownedby7horses.... Sorry for the confusion.... But, well....oh well....LOL. But, I would never actually TELL someone that I thought their horse had a (and I quote here) "a bunch of nobody's" in the pedigree.....even if I thought that for one second. As for pedigrees being somewhat of a nobody-type-thing.....no one had ever heard of the stallion *Bask either, before he arrived here....and I think he did pretty well. LOL.

[CrazyManda]

I'm just tired of defending ourselves.....so ya know what..I'll just nod my head and agree. Yup..we are young...yup, we are going to ruin a beautiful stallion and we'll never make any profit off breeding him and yeah I guess our other horses are so neglected we get tons of compliments about how good and healthy they look. We are absolutely horrible with horses, have no clue what we are doing so from now on we will first check with all our wonderful horse experts who never make a bad decision and have absolutely flawless horses before we ever decide what to do for ourselves. Forgive us for trying to do everything we can to help bring in some extra money so we can afford groceries and to pay some bills. I'm sorry for trying to show our excitement on the forum..next time we will just keep it to ourselves.

[Kaitlyn]

Forgive us for trying to do everything we can to help bring in some extra money so we can afford groceries and to pay some bills.

THAT right there is the issue. UGH!

[ownedby7horses]

OK, good Remali, I was worried that I had said something that I couldn't remember about this horses pedigree. I even went back and re-read all my posts and most of the other ones too.

"from now on we will first check with all our wonderful horse experts who never make a bad decision and have absolutely flawless horses before we ever decide what to do for ourselves. Forgive us for trying to do everything we can to help bring in some extra money so we can afford groceries and to pay some bills."
Nobody said their own horses are flawless. Everyone's horse has flaws, I don't care if they're top notch, pedigree'd (is that a word?? well it is now! lol) right out, $150,000,000 horses, there's going to be something somewhere wrong with it, even if it's only a little thing. Yes, people make mistakes, but most people swallow a little pride and take some good advice, and try to learn from what other people (who have lots of experience with breeding and conformation) are saying. Not everyone has the same tastes either, we all know that. So, a few people on here think he's not stallion material, get over it. I think the people on this board care enough about you guys, the welfare of your horses and the industry to tell you that they don't agree with what you're doing. Try to not take so much offense, just take what people say (even if you don't agree) and either debate it with them without shouting "I have more experience than you" and a big chip on the shoulder or ignore it or even better, try to learn something new. Everybody has an opinion and not everyone is going to agree, that's life.

This sort of bothers me, I have always tried to be open minded with people and their ventures in this horse industry, but the fact that you bought another horse who's going to need to be trained (which costs money), who's going to need great fencing (which also costs money), who should be marketed (to make any money) so that you could afford to pay some bills and buy some groceries is a bit ass backwards to me. Horses cost money, usually more money than they make.

Anyways, this post has probably pissed you guys right off, but I can't just not speak my mind on this. Do what you want. I'm done.

[livaward]

Forgive us for trying to do everything we can to help bring in some extra money so we can afford groceries and to pay some bills.

so now we are suppose to feel sorry for you? If you can't afford to pay for food then how are you going to provide for these who cannot provide for themselves? JEEZE!

[ownedby7horses]

That's exactly what I was trying to get at Liva, this doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

[zoel_222]

You two are so missing the point.......

[cheval]

Forgive us for trying to do everything we can to help bring in some extra money so we can afford groceries and to pay some bills.

THAT right there is the issue. UGH!

Agreed Kzeiger.

Good lord. If you can't see how ridiculous this is even when you write it by your own hands you aren't ever gonna get it.

[FredRock]

There's nothing wrong with getting a stallion and trying to get him marketed and make a profit because you enjoy it, and maybe you think a horse has potential. There is a problem with buying a horse with the intention of making money on it to buy necessities. I'm not even an adult legally yet, and I know that. You never go into the horse industry with the only good solution is to make a profit, because 9 times out of 10 you are going to lose money; even in the best circumstances.

Heck, both of my horses have taken more money in than they will ever give out in use, which is fine, because I have the funds to support them and myself. (I love them too, obviously ;) ) But if I actually needed to make a profit, wow, I would be in hot water.

The pedigree, I don't know anybody in it, but names aren't something I'mm good with, so I'm no help there. I think that, for breeding and potential disciplines, pedigrees are important because it allows the potential client to look over the past relatives and see what has been done, and what the possibilities are for their foal when combined with their mare's potential. So a halter heavy pedigree will breed good halter horses, but unless the horse has some kind of performance in there, more than likely the horse won't be very athletic. (that's based on pedigree alone, though. Obviously the training and care makes more of a difference) I think it might be wise to hold off breeding until you see what he can do..

[Remali]

Well, I do have to agree about making money.....my friends who show and breed (some had Saddlebreds, others Arabians, and the others had either QHs or Warmbloods...so all different breeds) didn't make any money for quite a few years after they started their breeding businesses. A couple of them made some very good money when a couple foals won at the breed futurities, and then they were able to sell those foals for very good money....but, gosh, it did take a few years, if not longer, for them to really show a good profit. So....it takes quite a lot of time, and money, to get there.

[elevenelevenxo]

Crazymanda and Cowboy - I'm sure we all understand your excitement. A new horse period is exciting, let alone one with great potential. Just please don't put all your eggs in one basket, take things slow, do it right....and be thankful if you're able to pay for some of his feed. Unless you have a world champion stud with amazing training, bloodlines, and demand, I doubt you'll get very far if your goal is to make a profit.

Maybe find a horse rescue to do some volunteer work at to understand what a lot of people are trying to say and where they are coming from. There really are too many "unwanted" horses out there....that's not to say your stud or any of his foals would be unwanted, but the market really isn't good right now for THE BEST, let alone a few steps down.

Again, just my two cents.

[Miracle Whip]

Hey Crazy and Co

Send me a copy of your budget and I will look at it. Itemize all of your expenditures for at least a month and categorize it.

Send me your address, I will send some garden seeds for you so you all have something to eat. Maybe I will send some horse worming medication, and a gift certificate with the local farrier and feed store.

Let us know how we can help you, surely some of us here have cut corners budget wise before...

And let us all leave our attitudes at the gate.

[cheval]

This is beyond attitudes. People have tried over and over and over and over in every way possible from indirect to very direct to answer questions they both have presented and all they succeed in doing is not listening to anything anyone says. The very fact that they made the statement:

Forgive us for trying to do everything we can to help bring in some extra money so we can afford groceries and to pay some bills.

goes to show they haven't listened. It's not only on this forum where the same advice has been given in as many ways as can be possible. It should be no surprise that people throw up their hands and think WTH.

Many of us do have to cut corners in order to have our horses, that makes that statement ALL the worse. If you can't afford groceries and paying bills then you've got no business buying extra horses. It's pretty simple.

[outriding01]

I agree with your stance, outriding, I really do. I didn't mean to offend you, however I was just stating my opinion. I think Crazymanda and her fiance are well aware of what the people here think about their horse conformation-wise.

Annnnddddd that's all I'm saying because I just woke up and really am too sleepy to do this right now. Just know I didn't mean any offense.

Gotcha. Guess I should have just stated the reasoning behind my opinion in the first place.

Extra money..... If you want it, get an extra job, not an extra horse. It's not rocket science.

The reason so many people think they're making money off their studs is because they fail to keep detailed accounts of all their expenditures. Sure, they "make" money when they get stud fees, and they're all excited to have cash in their pockets, but they don't realize that they are taking a net loss over all. Remali is absolutely right in that you can make money breeding, but it takes years, a lot of work and more than anything, a large amount of capital (i.e. MONEY). These people go in knowing that they are going to spend way more money than they are going to make for a good long time so they are prepared financially. Forgive me, but I really don't think you're prepared financially for that.

As an economics major, it honestly stuns me sometimes to see the financial decisions people make and believe are going to benefit them. It really just blows me away. My best advice to anyone who wants to engage in any sort of financial venture, whether buying a stud or growing vegetables for a farmers market.... learn how to create and read a balance sheet, an income statement and a statement of cash flows. It is tremendously helpful, I promise. And Quickbooks makes it so easy too.

[Cat]

Never ever expect to make a profit off animals. This will bite you in the butt every time. They are an expensive hobby at best. They may make you enough money to help offset some of their own costs, but not really above and beyond that unless you are hitting it in the big time - and to get there takes a HUGE investment (good quality stock, paying for competitions, etc) and lots and lots of time, more than the average person is going to be able to do.

Right now in this economy a lot of people are cutting back on how much breeding they are doing and when they do breed they are saving their money for a bigger-named stallion - the best they can afford - so they have a better chance of marketing the foal.

Until you get this guy trained and proven in the show ring you may not get any mares lined up for him. Can you afford to train & show him before making a single cent on him? If you do get mares before he is proven, many of them may be mediocre at best. Are you willing to screen mares and turn them away if they are lower quality? If not you will be helping to create foals with extremely uncertain futures in this economy. You also have to think that if you breed him to lower quality foals and the resulting foals are low-quality, future customers will do research and find those foals and it may make them decide to pass on breeding to your stallion. There are just SO many things to think about.

What if something happens to this stallion? He may break his leg before he makes you a single cent. He may get sick or injured and create a huge vet bill and make breeding him impossible. Is that a risk you can honestly take on with this investment? Its a real risk and something you really should think about.

[zoel_222]

If you do get mares before he is proven, many of them may be mediocre at best. Are you willing to screen mares and turn them away if they are lower quality? If not you will be helping to create foals with extremely uncertain futures in this economy. You also have to think that if you breed him to lower quality foals and the resulting foals are low-quality, future customers will do research and find those foals and it may make them decide to pass on breeding to your stallion. There are just SO many things to think about.

That is something you guys really need to think about. Sure there's ALWAYS going to be people who want their crappy or mediocre mares bred to a mediocre stallion like yours. Just because there are people there who WANT to breed to him, doesn't make him a dynamite stallion who should be bred. You should definitely not breed him to anyone who comes along with any mare. That should not be your goal. You should only breed him to the best mares who will compliment his conformation flaws to produce the best foals possible.

[mandascrazycowboy]

ok ill list everything we have here to show you that we are not going in to this blind.
1. We do all our own training so less one bill there
2. we have acres of pasture and plenty of hay stored for winter and droughts that we make here on the land.
3.we already have good fences.
4 we already have potential breeders at 250 a cover.
5. I have been breaking horses and been around horses since i was 5 years old breaking since 12 thats 22 years around horses and 15 years breaking them and I KNOW what I am doing we want some extra money who dosn't

A little note for the kids who still live at home because you have mommy and daddy to help pay your bills dont think that oks you to tell others who actually have to work and make money in this industry that what their doing is wrong. it may not be what you or anyone else here would do and thats fine with us but at least show some support even if you dont think its right we ALWAYS support you even when you do assinine things is it to much to ask all of you to do the same?

[mandascrazycowboy]

p.s. zoel all our potential mares are aqha registed we dont accept mediocre mares.

[zoel_222]

Jeez I feel like I'm talking to a wall. I'm done. :rolleyes:

[Kaitlyn]

A little note for the kids who still live at home because you have mommy and daddy to help pay your bills dont think that oks you to tell others who actually have to work and make money in this industry that what their doing is wrong. it may not be what you or anyone else here would do and thats fine with us but at least show some support even if you dont think its right we ALWAYS support you even when you do assinine things is it to much to ask all of you to do the same?

Asshole. Really, that sums it up. I live with my parents, I've been unemployed for SEVEN months and constantly looking. I still make my car payments, pay my insurance which has gone up incredibly, gasoline, cell phone bill, and do accounting work for my dad to cover my expenses here. Really? I truly wish this was a free speech board so I could really chew you out. I'm so entirely done with both yours and Manda's posts where there's NO spelling or grammar. You're very insulting to many people, and I'm hoping I took your statement out of context if not I mean what I said. I'm done after this, I wanted my peace.

Sorry WB if it's too raunchy. I'm 99% I'm done with this thread, I'll watch from now on.

Cheval - I agree with you completely, along with Zoel.

On edit: I still don't think you know what you're doing, and wish you would send that horse to a professional.

Done.

[CrazyManda]

We HAVE thought of all the what-ifs and maybes. We know that one injury to this stallion can end all riding, all training, even possibly end his stud career before it starts. We aren't looking to make thousands off him, just enough to help out a little bit.
I appreciate the thought Miracle Whip, but we are going to plant a garden ourselves this summer, like my parents always did every year. We have a hog that we will most likely get butchered later on or sell it.
We actually have made profit off of every animal we sell. We bought a very young calf at auction for $110, sold her last week for $200...the only thing we spent on her was a bottle of antiobiotics and a bag of grain. Sold a horse that I had bought for $40 last year, sold her for $200 and all I had in her was a $2 dewormer. We always find ways to make a profit.
Lack of jobs in our area is the worst I've seen it in a long time. I'm going to be going back to college to major in Administrative Services with a focus on medical transcription..Auren is already in college. We both work and manage the chickens and it pays way less than it should but we're stuck for now and we're trying everything we can to help.

[zoel_222]

:banghead::banghead:

[CrazyManda]

Kzeiger..I know unemployment sucks..I was laid off back in October and there are NO jobs here. We are just tired of being griped out. We never once asked if what we are doing was wrong..we asked for confo critiques and pedigree critiques..not a judgement on us. We'd like to be treated the same...we don't gripe anyone else out on this forum. We answer what they wanted to know and leave our opinion about other matters out of it unless the poster asked.
*Note from mandascrazycowboy:
I joined this forum because it's where horse lovers can be together...where we can talk about horses, the things we each individually love about them. I thought we'd all be like a big family. If that is what this place is, that is where I want to be, but when we all start getting cruel, angry, and derogatory towards each other then this place has lost what it had, what brought me here. Hopefully we can get that back. If you think what we are doing is wrong, fine. Don't gripe us out about it when all we asked was for a confo critique and pedigree analysis. I stand behind all of you when you make a decision even if it's not one that I would make. All I ask is that you do the same for me. I don't tell you you're an idiot, or what your doing is wrongeven if I think what your doing is wrong. We don't all have to agree but we do have to respect each other. Thank You, mandascrazycowboy

[CrazyManda]

__________________
Feel free to call me Kaitlyn.

"There is only success - to be able to spend your life your own way." - Christopher Morley
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/images/styles/beige/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/images/styles/beige/buttons/report.gif (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/report.php?p=130041)

this is a good quote but we need to live it not just say it without meaning it.*mandascrazycowboy

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/images/styles/beige/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=130041)

[ownedby7horses]

Kzeiger..I know unemployment sucks..I was laid off back in October and there are NO jobs here.
Then how is it that the horse industry there is so good still? That seems odd to me, to say the least. People have to have money to support their horse habit, that's the way it is. We all know the horses don't pay for themselves!

*Note from mandascrazycowboy:
I stand behind all of you when you make a decision even if it's not one that I would make. All I ask is that you do the same for me. I don't tell you you're an idiot, or what your doing is wrongeven if I think what your doing is wrong. mandascrazycowboy
Well it's not right that people should sit back and keep their mouths shut if someone is doing something wrong.

Also, just because a mare is reg'd with the aqha, doesn't make her a prime broodmare specimen. It's makes her a reg'd qh...nothing else. What if her confo is awful, will you turn her away? What if her temperment is nasty? Will you turn her away? Or will you just let them breed anyways because they're reg'd aqha?

[AppyLover]

You both have you sights set. I won't tell you what I think of your situation, but I will tell you with an unproven stud with (for the most part) unknown blood lines, it will be hard work to make him worth anything. And remember to get a good foal on the ground out of an ok stallion you will need an AWSOME mare as most of the genetics are from the mother. I wish you luck in your goals and hope that if anything that you do at least think about what some people have posted. Just think of all sides before getting to deffensive. We are one big family here and like all families we bicker and disagree with eachother.

[PaintedDreamer_0110]

Well if he's a riding horse, he's a really pretty one. If he's a stud, not so much. I don't want to offend, and obviously you can do what you want, but he's a mediocre stallion, but he'd make a fantastic gelding. If you're trying to sell his papers to people, they're not so impressive, everything proven is 5 generations back. If you're going to use this guy as a stud, you are going to have to market the crap outta him. I don't believe that little open shows are going to do it for a stud (most of those shows don't even allow studs here) and they are not there for "marketing", but this is just my opinion.
Just hope that you don't think Im being snotty or rude or anything else. I'm trying to be as gentle as possible here. I think he's pretty but that's not going to make the stud. Again, If you're going to make money on him like you plan to, you're going to have to market him... a lot. Little open shows aren't likely to do it, just my opinion. If you were to take him to some AQHA shows, and he was to win in something (besides halter, he doesn't look like a halter horse) then you have something to market and money to be made. He looks like he'd make a deadly reiner, honestly. He can spin and roll back quite nicely. He's built more like a reiner too in my opinion.
I, again, hope I didn't offend you. You asked what we thought, so here's what I think...if you're not going to market him properly, geld him. He'd make a sweet and gorgeous gelding. Again I also know (as well as everyone else on here) that you're going to do your own thing, whether you agree with anyone on here or not.
I don't think your horses bloodlines are so fantastic, sorry.

*side note*
Of course everyone is going to think they're horse is better, that's life. I think my horse is better than everyones horse, but I am completely aware that I'm the only one who thinks that. Do what you want with him, you will anyways! Good luck with him.

I completly agree with you! There is nothing to loud about his papers and I'm sorry but nothing jumps out. He is pretty I do have to give you that, but his confo isnt the best. Yes you can't ride papers but you shouldn't breed if you don't have quality ones either. You cannot show studs in the open shows around here so idk where you guys are but yea....JMO

*on edit....So you won't breed to mediocre mares but you want people to breed there quality mares to your mediocre Stud?!?!?!?, wow..... Ok I'm 17 and work hard to keep my horses. Times got had last year and my parents were stuggling to feed my 4 and my dads 2, So I did the RESPONCIBLE thing and let 2 of my horses go. I wasn't errrm Eresponcible and run out and buy another(i.e YOU)......You 2 people are UNBELEIVEABLE:mad:. Zoel, Kizeger, and so many others I'm on your side 100%!

[ownedby7horses]

You can't show studs here either unless it's breed show. Maybe AK is different, but I dunno....:huh:

[cloedoll]

Sold a horse that I had bought for $40 last year, sold her for $200 and all I had in her was a $2 dewormer.What about hay, vaccinations, farrier, dentist, etc.? I am 99% sure you spent more than $200 on her to keep her alive and healthy. I'm not critiquing your profit making skills here but just saying I think everyone puts more in their horse just to keep them healthy then they realize. I am almost positive you are going to put more money into this stallion then what you'll get out of him. You are saying he's a good stud, you WILL make a profit, etc. but don't you realize the forum is full of diverse horse people with different views on so much but yet almost all of us agree we don't see potential in your stud, don't think it's a good idea to breed him and wouldn't breed our mares to him. Did you ever stop and think, hey, maybe these people know what they're talking about. It's like when someone comes up with an invention and tries to sell it, it's either good or it's not and the costumers are the best critic for that because they're the ones you have to sell it to and will be buying it. It's just common sense to me.

A little note for the kids who still live at home because you have mommy and daddy to help pay your bills dont think that oks you to tell others who actually have to work and make money in this industry that what their doing is wrong. it may not be what you or anyone else here would do and thats fine with us but at least show some support even if you dont think its right we ALWAYS support you even when you do assinine things is it to much to ask all of you to do the same?

Your calling us kids but your the one who is acting like it! Sheesh. If you're struggling as much as I think you are (based on your posts and complaints) maybe you should consider selling your horses for the sake of you and them. That's honestly what's on my mind and I kept it to myself but after reading that post, I don't see why I should. Your telling me what's truly on your mind and that's what's on mine. I won't show support for something I don't think is right...for example, I don't think animal testing is right, so how much sense would it make for me to encourage companies to do it? That is just...well, stupid.

I don't know what else to say. I'm only fifteen but honestly my jaw drops when I read some of you and your fiance's posts. I do wish you two the best, whatever that may be to you but I hope an animal or future animal doesn't pay the price of that.

[WashingtonBay]

Sorry WB if it's too raunchy.

Just a little... :trout:


CrazyCouple, I don't know where you get the idea that families never do anything but blow sunshine up each other's behinds, but certainly in my family we don't let members do stupid thing after stupid thing, and never give a word or advice or even a sharp warning if it looks like they're about walk into yet another bad situation. I want my family to be respectable when they go out into the world, and I want to be able to defend them if someone like f_gly gets ahold of them. I can't do that with you.

I can't defend the goats in the kitchen or not being able to afford to vet the horses you already have, or needing to sell guns to pay for broken windows or overselling yourself in your barely decipherable grammar about your vast horse breakin' experience since age five. Or when you say you're going to be choosy and professional now all of the sudden. I just don't buy it. Through it all you guys read like a train wreck. Fix that, and many of the doubts about how well this whole "stud thing" is going to go will disappear. I can't fix all that for you. You fix it.

[WashingtonBay]

You can't show studs here either unless it's breed show. Maybe AK is different, but I dunno....:huh:

There's no limitations I ever came across showing stallions at open and schooling shows. Occasional restrictions on them in youth classes, that's about it.

[zoel_222]

You can't show studs here either unless it's breed show. Maybe AK is different, but I dunno....:huh:

I do believe they live in Arkansas not Alaska :D;):innocent:

[Tiz]

"I was just referring to the comments on pedigrees WB. I dunno....I guess a lot of people don't get into pedigrees..." Remali

Remali, you were all gushy about this horse's pedigree, but did you ever say what you liked about it? No.

Crazy/Crazy if you are booking mares for $250, you are planning on breeding MEDIOCRE mares. Quality mares do not go to $250 stallions. You are preparing to produce mediocre horses, that without ANYTHING OTHER THEN FEED COSTS, you will have $1500 TO $2000 INVESTED in by the time they are weaning age. Then you'll be able to SELL THEM FOR $100 TO $200.

[ownedby7horses]

Well that could very well be WB! I don't know (obviously) about the rules where they are from, but I know here that studs are definately NOT allowed at schooling shows and I don't think they're allowed at open shows either, not after age 1. Like I said though, might be different there, that's a real possiblity. Regardless though, a small unrecognized show isn't going to do squat in my opinion about marketing this (or any) stallion.

[ownedby7horses]

I do believe they live in Arkansas not Alaska :D;):innocent:

LOL, sorry. I knew that but I wasn't paying too much attention to what I was putting in for a state! My bad!

[zoel_222]

All the shows around here exclude studs over 1 unless it's a breed show, too.

[Remali]

Hey Tiz.... I like Two Eyed Jack and Sonny Dee Bar.

You know, I don't care if people disagree....and I don't even care if people get into a tiff about standing a stallion, breeding, or ANYTHING else. What I don't like is people name-calling -- that is uncalled for. No excuse for it.

And, as for quality mares not going to stallions with "lower stud fees" (such as ($250), you better read up a little more there girl. A couple people I know stand some very awesome stallions (sons of National Champions in halter and performance) and they also are siring Futurity winners and their stud fees are not high. So, yes, quality mares do indeed sometimes do go to stallions with $250 stud fees, not all stallion owners charge an arm and a leg. I am not going to give out the stallion owners names on here....but they own stallions sired by Ivanhoe Tsultan and Alada Baskin, these same stallions also have champion offspring, but to preserve my friend's privacy I am not naming names on the internet here.

They do show stallions here in my area, age doesn't matter.

[WashingtonBay]

All the shows around here exclude studs over 1 unless it's a breed show, too.

Well that's exceedingly dumb. I've never seen that. So stallions don't need schooling shows to get ready for the big leagues? Ridiculous.

[Cat]

Just things to keep in mind...

1. We do all our own training so less one bill there - How many stallions have you broke on your own? There is a difference between mares and geldings and a stallion. Just curious. If you can train him on your own - good for you. Do you have show-quality tack & outfits for the rider? Those are part of the costs as well.

2. we have acres of pasture and plenty of hay stored for winter and droughts that we make here on the land. - Don't forget to factor in the cost of that hay - its not "free" just because you grow it. There is the gas costs, any fertilization or lime you will have to put down (even if you can get away with not doing this now - to keep those fields productive you will eventually need to lime it), and there is also any unexpected tractor repairs to factor in. Never fails - the tractor will break down at the worst time.

3.we already have good fences. You still need to maintain those fences so they stay good. That also costs money.

4 we already have potential breeders at 250 a cover. Potential. They have not paid yet so that could change depending on how the economy in your area goes. What are your mare criteria? Just being AQHA registered is not enough, IMO.

5. I have been breaking horses and been around horses since i was 5 years old breaking since 12 thats 22 years around horses and 15 years breaking them and I KNOW what I am doing we want some extra money who dosn't Honestly - if you can break horses and are good at it - why not take on some customers and train their horses? If you are as good as you say - I believe this would actually be a smarter way to make money.

A little note for the kids who still live at home because you have mommy and daddy to help pay your bills dont think that oks you to tell others who actually have to work and make money in this industry that what their doing is wrong. it may not be what you or anyone else here would do and thats fine with us but at least show some support even if you dont think its right we ALWAYS support you even when you do assinine things is it to much to ask all of you to do the same?

This was flat-out rude. I don't live with my parents, however, we have been hit with the bad economy as well and I am unemployed right now. A big difference is instead of taking on another horse - we are trying to downsize. And just like my real family - I don't give false "oh, its ok" type responses to my forum family either when they are doing something I fear is going to end up bad in the end. I really hope you take everything said here to heart. People aren't saying things here just to be mean - though it may seem like that to you - they are saying it out of concern.

[Cat]

Well that's exceedingly dumb. I've never seen that. So stallions don't need schooling shows to get ready for the big leagues? Ridiculous.

I've never heard of a stallion restriction as long as the stallion is being handled by an adult. Strange.

[Remali]

The stallion restriction must be in certain areas or certain states perhaps. We do not have that here.

[WashingtonBay]

I've never heard of a stallion restriction as long as the stallion is being handled by an adult. Strange.


Even that wasn't an issue at any show I was in. I was a youth when I was showing my Arab stallion. Some shows, I couldn't show in youth classes. But I could show in open.

[ownedby7horses]

I don't know. I know when I got Rodeo, he was a breeding stallion, and I couldn't show him unless it was an apha recognized show.

[CrazyManda]

We don't have stallion restrictions here either and actually we are going to start training other people's horses.I am better at teaching halter breaking, lunging, ground driving, all the prep work before the rider gets on..but he's better at sticking bucks and dealing with skittish horses than me so it'll work lol. I'm also going to do some more websites if I can get any customers. There is nobody else even remotely close who does any sort of training so I think we'll get some work that way.
We have very very mild winters here so 5 round bales lasts us way into summer. Usually we have grass year round too and that helps. We don't use our own tractor to cut hay. We have a deal worked out where a guy comes in with his equipment, cuts and bales it and he gets so many bales out of it. Even with one cutting we have enough to last us into summer.
The landlord has a budget set aside for fencing this year and we are getting all new fencing put in. Our grain costs are almost nothing. We have atleast 30 acres in pasture and with only 2 or 3 horses on it, that is way more than enough and we never feed grain unless there is a specific reason to. Because we have so much pasture there is also no need to fertilize and if we needed to, we have our own fertilizer here on the farm.

[Miracle Whip]

Gosh just the other day I was begging for a controversal thread.

(sighs)

Thank you Cat for describing the costs of hay production. Gee I wish I could grow my own hay, but I had to buy my own property and could not afford more than 6 acres with a house. Had to build the barn and the pasture fence and have waited 3 years and the only tractor we have is the one we borrow from the neighbor. 1/2 of the time we do things for him in return or pay him for the use of the tractor.

Edited - just saw your tractor arrangement. So what do you do during a harsh winter? What is your rent payment on 30 acres?

Is the landlord going to build you a stud pen for breeding purposes? Yes you should fertilize your pastures once in a while. Not every year, but trust me, it makes a HUGE difference in the amount of grass you will get. And poop isn't the best fertilizer in the world, in fact, too much of it can make your pasture one big worm pit.

Dreams are a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, most of us have never had the opportunities that you seem to have. So try to understand why we all want to share our so called wisdom.

What I was trying to point out on my last post, in regards to the garden and budget etc...is that there is more constructive ways us old foggies here could give you advise. Do you have a budget? Do you have a trailer? Do you have a suitable breeding pen?? I would not breed my mare in that enclosure with the falling down building in it...we try to be the voice of reason, yet you KNOW you can do it all yourself.

So why do we waste our time? Because it entertains us?

[Tiz]

"Some really good breeding there!" Remali

Two well known names, 5 generations back. OK.

[Remali]

Not quite sure what your question is Tiz? Why don't you just ask me? I do like Sonny Dee Bar and Two Eyed Jack.

[Miracle Whip]

A stallion, competing in Reining or cutting competitions, is going to need grain.

My riding club restricts stallions - no stallions whatsoever that are older than the age of 1. Period. Its not a breed organization, just a family oriented club. Every year the membership has a vote, and our club does not want to allow stallions.

[Tiz]

No question. Just getting an idea of what you meant by "Some really good breeding there!".


"A couple people I know stand some very awesome stallions (sons of National Champions in halter and performance) and they also are siring Futurity winners and their stud fees are not high. So, yes, quality mares do indeed sometimes do go to stallions with $250 stud fees"

Ridiculous. Or are you talking about the County Fair Futurity?

[Remali]

County Fairs?! LMAO. These people own horses that compete at class A Arabian shows, and at Regional breed shows.

[Tiz]

Then they're getting more then $250 to bring their stallion out of his stall.

[Remali]

Oh well, I'm not going to argue with you. You can think what you want.

[vicklynn]

Agreed, 100%.

This board has been getting awfully quick to pounce and gang up on people lately.
Ditto, or should I say tripple that, beings you agreed to to the previous thread.

[vicklynn]

Here is what I see. Three Bars, Poco, Hancock, and Two Eyed Jack. What I also see is a bunch of people jumping on someone for owning a horse. Makes no sence.
Heck, Citys lines dont mean much until he goes back to, oh wait, his daddy, but from their on out its farther back. He shows little signs of cowhorse(which his daddy was)and shows his Three Bars build.
I just dont understand why people are being so mean lately. When it gets like this it reminds me of Horse.com in the works. You may not see it, cause your in it, but from out here, that is what some of us see.

[Remali]

I agree Vicklynn......why are some people being so mean? It just makes no sense to me at all.
We don't all have to agree, but I think some people could be a lot more tactful, and I especially don't care for the name-calling....that's just wrong. It's sad. And I get this for just liking a pedigree.....
"Remali, you were all gushy about this horse's pedigree, but did you ever say what you liked about it? No." Makes no sense.

Why can't we just have a discussion without getting so nasty.

[WashingtonBay]

Not pouncing for owning a horse, vicklynn. Let's be clear.

Just not jumping up and down for joy that these kids, who have no money to pay for care for the horses they have, are buying another horse they can't afford, a stallion no less, because they think he can make them money in stud fees.



I shut the other thread down to save these two from a feeding frenzy. They appear to have decided to NOT accept that gift, but want to talk to us again about this stallion, who most still think is a fairly bad idea. I don't know exactly how far to let this go, I'm playing it by ear. "Horse.com" in the works doesn't mean anything to me. It's a forum. It gets like any forum, at times. :)

[Remali]

Well, you know, I never saw anything offensive from the OP. Just kids excited about their new horse. Whether it is right or wrong, I am not going to judge....

[vicklynn]

But why the feeding frenzy.

Here is what I see you all saying...bear with me please.

Someone cant afford vet bills, ect, shame on them....I hear you, I really do.

Although some people cant afford the vet bills, they are buying horses.....shame on them.....I hear you, I really do.

And now there is a stallion in the picture, which is way more a concern for the forums help.......shame on them(owners)......I hear you, I really do.

Listen though.

What good is it going to do anyone by jumping in with both feet, arms blasting, fighting, making yourselves pissed, mad, name calling, ect. IF you feel they are not hearing you? What did you do but upset yourselves.

I think he has a nice looking horse. I feel that the vet care should of come before another horse, let alone a stallion. I said it. I feel it, and I hope the best for them anyway.

Would I put myself in that predicament,,,,,,HELL NO.

OK, ya all, keep venting on, it was just my thoughts..
((HUGS))Love ya all!!

[WashingtonBay]

I can agree that once everyone has spoken and it still falls on deaf ears, all it can do is get repetitive. I don't want that, I don't want to beat dead horses, I'm not even upset in the least, nor do I think most are.

I'll agree that I don't want every thread these two post to become an 11 page flame war. But short of just banning them because I don't want the disruption, I can only hope to tell them to post smarter, unless they just like this kind of attention.

[vicklynn]

I cant see banning them. I can see asking others to just not go to their thread, cause some of us would like to see what is going on and reply as nicely as we can with what ever situation evolves.
Make sence???
They didnt make people yell at them or call them names.

[WashingtonBay]

Well for now lets just let this one die, and hope everyone is smarter for the next thread.

[mandascrazycowboy]

Wb can I ask why we are the bad guys? We are proud of our horses. We are proud of everyone elses horses we can and do afford vet bills we scrape by for ourselves but our animals are never lacking. The farrier and the vet said that to float her teeth is not NECCESARY because: a. it does not interfere with her eating b. it does not cause her pain. c. we use hackamores and side pulls so their is no problem with a bit interfering or bothering her. We dont have to float her teeth cause everyone else says we should I really think people are assuming alot about us that is not true. We want to breed this stallion. Their are requirements we have for the mares we will breed him to. We are not just picking horses at random and saying throw em in their let em do their thing we are being very very selective on the mares that can breed to our stallion. I understand what you all are saying but it is not true. we LOVE horses to us they are not a "hobby" like they are for a lot of people they are a way of life they are a blessing and a true gift from god. I just wish you all saw that to so now ive said what i have to say so please no reaming me a new one for how its worded. THANKS.

[livaward]

I'll believe it when I see it.....but I am done with this thread and wish you the best......hopefully your dream will come true

[WashingtonBay]

We wouldn't even know she needed her teeth floated if you didn't say she did. If her teeth have hooks and points, then they are a problem, and they are causing sores and pain in her mouth regardless of what you're using her, or not using her for. Whether the horse is still eating or not, whether you use a bit or not, and whether or not she can actually tell you it hurts. If she's not being floated because you can't afford it, then you're not setting a standard of care I respect for your horses.

Spare me the talk of God and how selective you are. Really... I'm not buying it. You're not well-heeled picky breeders, you're upstarts with a stallion you bought on a whim, dealing in $40-$200 horses and that's what you'll probably produce, with anyone who will book him. Horses no better, or worse, than most of those going to bad fates in Mexico.

Sorry but that's my impression.

[PaintedDreamer_0110]

We don't have stallion restrictions here either and actually we are going to start training other people's horses.I am better at teaching halter breaking, lunging, ground driving, all the prep work before the rider gets on..but he's better at sticking bucks and dealing with skittish horses than me so it'll work lol. I'm also going to do some more websites if I can get any customers. There is nobody else even remotely close who does any sort of training so I think we'll get some work that way.
We have very very mild winters here so 5 round bales lasts us way into summer. Usually we have grass year round too and that helps. We don't use our own tractor to cut hay. We have a deal worked out where a guy comes in with his equipment, cuts and bales it and he gets so many bales out of it. Even with one cutting we have enough to last us into summer.
The landlord has a budget set aside for fencing this year and we are getting all new fencing put in. Our grain costs are almost nothing. We have atleast 30 acres in pasture and with only 2 or 3 horses on it, that is way more than enough and we never feed grain unless there is a specific reason to. Because we have so much pasture there is also no need to fertilize and if we needed to, we have our own fertilizer here on the farm.

If you are so taken care of than why couldnt you afford to get your horses teeth floated Hmmm?

*on edit....I agree 100% with you WB!

[vicklynn]

We wouldn't even know she needed her teeth floated if you didn't say she did. If her teeth have hooks and points, then they are a problem, and they are causing sores and pain in her mouth regardless of what you're using her, or not using her for. Whether the horse is still eating or not, whether you use a bit or not, and whether or not she can actually tell you it hurts. If she's not being floated because you can't afford it, then you're not setting a standard of care I respect for your horses.

Spare me the talk of God and how selective you are. Really... I'm not buying it. You're not well-heeled picky breeders, you're upstarts with a stallion you bought on a whim, dealing in $40-$200 horses and that's what you'll probably produce, with anyone who will book him. Horses no better, or worse, than most of those going to bad fates in Mexico.

Sorry but that's my impression.
See, now thats constructive criticism. I have to agree with you on this WB.

[outriding01]

Just one last note, in line with "you can't ride papers" and only breeding to AQHA reg'd mares..... I've only owned on registered horses ever. He was an AQHA reg'd appendix gelding, grandson of Rugged Lark, son of Executive Circle - 2 time World Champion, 123 AQHA points in 7 events, Performance ROM and Superior HUS. His dam's side was the TB and is pretty nice looking as well.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/executive+circle

WORST horse I ever rode in my entire life. Thank the good Lord someone had the intelligence to geld him before he ever bred. He was absolutely gorgeous (there are pics of him in my albums), had very good confo, moved beautifully, very scopey, and completely and totally insane. He was a reg'd QH with great papers, but by no means breeding quality.... Just a personal example.

[cloedoll]

The farrier and the vet said that to float her teeth is not NECCESARY because: a. it does not interfere with her eating b. it does not cause her pain. c. we use hackamores and side pulls so their is no problem with a bit interfering or bothering her.

Floating of the teeth is necessary because it does interfere with their eating (wasn't it WashingtonBay whose pony dropped some weight this winter because her teeth needed floated?), it does cause pain (some horses may show that they're in pain, others, not so much), especially when it creates ulcers and regardless of what bit or no bit you use, the sharp teeth are still there digging into their mouth. Ouch!

[FredRock]

A little note for the kids who still live at home because you have mommy and daddy to help pay your bills dont think that oks you to tell others who actually have to work and make money in this industry that what their doing is wrong. it may not be what you or anyone else here would do and thats fine with us but at least show some support even if you dont think its right we ALWAYS support you even when you do assinine things is it to much to ask all of you to do the same?

You have no idea what my situation is, or what I've done my entire life up to this point. You don't deserve to know about my personal life.

I've seen what bad breeding operations can do to businesses, I've seen people breed mares that can't run and have nasty attitudes to a semi-decent stallion and hope for a winner. Not a single one of those foals went on to win them any money. They had a really, really nice mare worth tons, but instead of keeping her to breed (and possibly get a good runner) they sold her for fast cash. Last time I checked, they were bankrupt and had broken down runners with nasty attitudes. Lost my job because they couldn't afford me anymore.

I honestly hope everything works out in the end for you, but experience tells me that, chances are, you won't make a cent off him. I hope you the best, and I'm done.

[cheval]

Personally, I think they like this sort of attention. They know exactly when they post these topics based on previous advise given what is going to happen and they continue to do it. They don't want to listen to anyone. That's why people are fed up. Initially people went to great lengths to give these two and to her over at h.com advise. Of course they don't have to take it, obviously. But they shouldn't expect sunshine and daisies when they post something so ridiculous as the things they've said in this thread and the one that got shut down.

As far as this turning into h.com - it's not. People aren't willy nilly making comments that are not deserved. It's not about being mean. It's about trying to show people how immature and irresponsible the things they are saying are. The fact is they need to learn the lesson on their own. Everyone here has made a great effort at trying to help. That help is obviously not wanted so I say focus on the other threads where people are listening and help them instead.

[vicklynn]

As far as this turning into h.com - it's not. People aren't willy nilly making comments that are not deserved. It's not about being mean. It's about trying to show people how immature and irresponsible the things they are saying are. The fact is they need to learn the lesson on their own. Everyone here has made a great effort at trying to help. That help is obviously not wanted so I say focus on the other threads where people are listening and help them instead.
Yes maam:)

[Tiz]

"Heck, Citys lines dont mean much until he goes back to, oh wait, his daddy, but from their on out its farther back. He shows little signs of cowhorse(which his daddy was)and shows his Three Bars build." Vickylynn

Your horse is a gelding, isn't he?

Vickylynn, you really don't want everyone to sound the same, do you? I'll bet you wouldn't be visiting this forum long if that were the case.

Crazy/Crazy the mistake you're making isn't unique. Thousands of people have made it before you. Hopefully, all of the horses you are responsible for creating will live in loving, well fed, lifetime homes. I hope you will consider that responsibility as you go forward. God is watching you.

One last thing, if you go on a forum and ask for opinions, expect to get opinions. All kinds of opinions. Not everyone will be capable of unconditional cheerleading like Remali.

[vicklynn]

"Heck, Citys lines dont mean much until he goes back to, oh wait, his daddy, but from their on out its farther back. He shows little signs of cowhorse(which his daddy was)and shows his Three Bars build." Vickylynn

Your horse is a gelding, isn't he?

Vickylynn, you really don't want everyone to sound the same, do you? I'll bet you wouldn't be visiting this forum long if that were the case.


Yes maam. Ill shut up now.

[cheval]

I don't want you to shut up - you have good advice. My thing is I don't want this place to ever be considered to the other place. These situations may make it seem that way granted, it's the same people that keep these situations cropping up. I think we should just focus energy on people who appreciate the input.

[Joey A]

I have to wonder how different the conversation would go if it were taking place in a face-to-face setting, versus behind computer screens. I have a feeling there would be a bit more tact in the way a lot of things are presented.

My opinion lays in the breed the best of the best to the best, and hope for the best addage....but I realize honey catches more flies than vinegar. I just think people can be a lot less rude....not that much has been said in this particular thread, but in general....when people start arguing on here, it gets pretty nasty and develops a pretty negative name for this forum.

If it's any consolation, I'm as much of a jerk in person as I am online. :eek: Not everyone is gonna like it, but you sure as hell know where I stand! :cool:

[cheval]

Which is the way it should be.

[vicklynn]

I don't want you to shut up - you have good advice. My thing is I don't want this place to ever be considered to the other place. These situations may make it seem that way granted, it's the same people that keep these situations cropping up. I think we should just focus energy on people who appreciate the input.
I know, why I had a smiley face after wards. ((HUGS))

[Tiz]

"If it's any consolation, I'm as much of a jerk in person as I am online. :eek: Not everyone is gonna like it, but you sure as hell know where I stand! :cool:"

There you go.

I like it. No pussyfooting.

[Remali]

Well said eleveneleven. Face-to-face I don't think we would've had some of the nastiness.

[Tiz]

Kiss Kiss

[cheval]

I think it would have been more colorful face to face actually. Maybe you would have a problem taking the direct route but I'll bet several people in this very thread wouldn't.

[Remali]

I have absolutely no problem being direct. I just don't call people names.

[zoel_222]

Well said eleveneleven. Face-to-face I don't think we would've had some of the nastiness.


Speak for yourself. I'm as "nasty" in real life as I am on the forum. I'll tell you what I'm thinking when I think it, both on the forum and in "real life." Some people call it nasty.... I call it Zoe. :cool:

[Remali]

Oh well. We are all different, different opinions, etc. and so on..... Hey....is it a full moon??!!! ;) Just trying to lighten the mood a bit.

[zoel_222]

I know you're a nice person, Remali and I don't think any less of you because of these Crazy people. I completely understand where you're coming from about respect and being polite. But, I don't know, I'm just not the type of person who walks around being nice and polite and bites my tongue all the time to spare people's feelings. I don't want to be the one to smile and nod and be supportive of something when I'm really completely against what's going on. I think people just need to deal with the truth, and there needs to be people who aren't afraid to say what everyone else is thinking..... okay did that make any sense? :huh: lol

[Remali]

Sure, that makes sense. I totally know where you are coming from. There was a time I was definitely not the way I am now, and actually I'm not always so understanding....lol.... If THAT makes sense....ha. You should have heard me on this particular trail ride many years ago (I was not nice at all, but the guy had it coming)....lol...but, that is another story.

[Joey A]

Wb can I ask why we are the bad guys? We are proud of our horses. We are proud of everyone elses horses we can and do afford vet bills we scrape by for ourselves but our animals are never lacking. The farrier and the vet said that to float her teeth is not NECCESARY because: a. it does not interfere with her eating b. it does not cause her pain. c. we use hackamores and side pulls so their is no problem with a bit interfering or bothering her. We dont have to float her teeth cause everyone else says we should I really think people are assuming alot about us that is not true. We want to breed this stallion. Their are requirements we have for the mares we will breed him to. We are not just picking horses at random and saying throw em in their let em do their thing we are being very very selective on the mares that can breed to our stallion. I understand what you all are saying but it is not true. we LOVE horses to us they are not a "hobby" like they are for a lot of people they are a way of life they are a blessing and a true gift from god. I just wish you all saw that to so now ive said what i have to say so please no reaming me a new one for how its worded. THANKS.

Your little horse is gonna have to get some points on him as a cutter or a reiner if you're gonna try to breed him. At that he's gonna have to be an amazing horse to make up for his breeding and his conformation. The breeding is sometimes an easy thing to get past if they're good, and if they're pretty. (you're halfway there, he is cute) Those legs are gonna turn away anyone with a brain especially if you're gonna promote him as a barrel or pole horse though.

Your excuses for not floating the guys teeth are what I'd be calling asinine. Routine care is what prevents problems further down the road, sure he may not NEED it now, but you can't make up for it later if it leaves him an orthodontic cripple.

"If it's any consolation, I'm as much of a jerk in person as I am online. :eek: Not everyone is gonna like it, but you sure as hell know where I stand! :cool:"

There you go.

I like it. No pussyfooting.

:innocent::rolleyes:

I think it would have been more colorful face to face actually. Maybe you would have a problem taking the direct route but I'll bet several people in this very thread wouldn't.

Are we taking bets? What are the odds? I'm betting on the guy with 20 horses, that carries around a 2# hammer. :D

[outriding01]

I have to be honest, I'm much, much more direct and in-your-face in real life than I ever am on here. I just fought on the phone with my boyfriend for an hour because I gave him an opinion on a movie he's writing. He hates that I don't sugarcoat stuff, even for him. I just feel like it's a waste of breath.

I feel like I am better on here because while I'm typing, I have time to pause and think, so I don't lose my temper.

[Joey A]

It must be a "girl" thing outriding. I just sound a lot better when arguing on the internet. I lose my train of thought a lot and stammer in person. (damn ADHD)

[Remali]

I actually find it easier to say things to people face-to-face, I am probably more subdued online, now that I think about it. Interesting.

[outriding01]

For me, I feel it's because I don't want to get too worked up about things on here, because in the end, there's really nothing I can do about it if I get really pissed off. In real life, I at least can punch someone in the face if the make me really angry, and then I feel better :)

[Remali]

That's true. lol.

[Joey A]

For me, I feel it's because I don't want to get too worked up about things on here, because in the end, there's really nothing I can do about it if I get really pissed off. In real life, I at least can punch someone in the face if the make me really angry, and then I feel better :)

:hysterical:

I'm here most of the time for entertainment. I live in the country and I'm not all that into shooting at things and drinking beer, so friends are hard to find. :hysterical: (lol, I crack myself up)

I'm a bit of a geek, so most of my posts are on hoofcare, and soundness / health issues. (you know, like my day job, lol) But every so often I'm bored enough to poke into a good training debate etc...

It's been fun reading these two contradict each other and back pedal. I really don't have anything else to say that hasn't been said already, but I'll probably follow their threads from now on... It's better than watching Maury. :hysterical:

[Petra]

:hysterical:

I'm here most of the time for entertainment. I live in the country and I'm not all that into shooting at things and drinking beer, so friends are hard to find. :hysterical: (lol, I crack myself up)

I'm a bit of a geek, so most of my posts are on hoofcare, and soundness / health issues. (you know, like my day job, lol) But every so often I'm bored enough to poke into a good training debate etc...

It's been fun reading these two contradict each other and back pedal. I really don't have anything else to say that hasn't been said already, but I'll probably follow their threads from now on... It's better than watching Maury. :hysterical:

Lol, you read my mind. :D

[Vibe]

Lol, you read my mind. :D

Ditto.

[ownedby7horses]

I'm actually a lot different in person than I am on here. I can be a total bitch in person, especially when it comes to the welfare of animals.

On here, I probably do sugarcoat things a bit too much. For the most part, I understand that every person has their own dreams and goals, but when those dreams & goals are going to potentially add to the problem of homeless, starving, under cared for horses, I'm going to speak my mind.

Crazy couple: The thing that really gets me is the mare does need her teeth done, and quite honestly, I dont give a **** what the vet said, It's routine care. If a child had a cavity but it wasn't that bad yet and they couldn't talk to tell you if it hurt them or not, would you just leave it until it's either too late or they can finally get it through your head that it hurts, just because it isn't nessessary yet? I would sure hope not. There isn't really money to be made on breeding horses, especially if you're breeding for all the right reasons, and those reasons aren't to help you put groceries in your cupboard and pay your bills, and in my opinion, those reasons are to better the breed and always raise the bar of acceptability and breed standards. Yes, the stallion is pretty, but that's really the only thing going for him right now, unless you can prove me wrong and in a couple years I see that he's got points under him to back up his stud fee's, and he's the next "have to have a baby by him" stallion, then I'm going to assume that I was right all along and this breeding business was a very bad choice. I don't think this stallion of yours is going to come in and save the day for you 2.
Did you think people would come into this thread and not speak their minds? When has that ever happened on this or any other forum?

I don't know why I keep posting in this thread, It's pointless. They don't take anything anyone is saying seriously. They know it all, so I guess they know what they're doing here too.

[ownedby7horses]

:hysterical:

I'm here most of the time for entertainment. I live in the country and I'm not all that into shooting at things and drinking beer, so friends are hard to find. :hysterical: (lol, I crack myself up)

I'm a bit of a geek, so most of my posts are on hoofcare, and soundness / health issues. (you know, like my day job, lol) But every so often I'm bored enough to poke into a good training debate etc...

It's been fun reading these two contradict each other and back pedal. I really don't have anything else to say that hasn't been said already, but I'll probably follow their threads from now on... It's better than watching Maury. :hysterical:

Ditto again!

[Lakota's Pet]

I have held my tongue thru this whole thing, but I can't anymore. The horse industry is suffering the same challenges as the rest of the nation, so if you think this stud is gonna make you a quick buck, it's not gonna happen. As to the pedigree, I don't see anything jumping out at me, but that doesn't neccesarily mean anything either. It just means he's going to have to prove himself in some discipline to be worth much as a performance stallion.

As to the decisions that you two keep making, and the statements you give to defend them, I would suggest if you don't like what people here have to say, don't post. You say you have 20 years experience with horses and 15 years training experience. Anybody can say anthing over the internet to people they don't know to portray themselves in a different light. But, I have ridden with a lot of people, and seen people that can back up their 20 years, and others that may have been around horses for 20 years, but don't really know the first thing about safety, and how a 1200 lb animal with a mind of it's own should be treated. So you may have the time and experience that you say, but I take it with a very big grain of salt, as I have never seen you with horses or even met you. And by the way, I am the same age as you Cowboy, and I have trained few police horses that have competed against professional full time police horses and beaten them.


WF, this is definately better than Maury.:)

[peace_baby]

It must be a "girl" thing

:p Whatchu talkin bout Willis?

[Joey A]

"I'M" what Willis was talkin' 'bout!

[peace_baby]

:hysterical: You sure about that?
He coulda been talkin bout me.