Suggestions to stop head throwing?

[Lakota's Pet]

I bought an 8 yr old paint back in early August. The first few times I rode him he was great. Now when he gets frustrated or scared he throws his head back. He has almost hit me a few times with the top of his head. And another time when he didn't get his way he reared on my dad. We have a tie down on him now, just for safety reasons, since he won't bother with it on. I know that is a temporary thing, but I am not sure what to do training wise to fix it. I wondered if anybody had some ideas on how to fix this. I want to get the tie down off as soon as I can.

[Arrow]

The first thing to check is his teeth.

Next, I'd do a lot more ground work with him, leading and grooming, tying him up to a hitching post for a few hours, calming him down.

It took Arrow a long time to settle into his new home--months. Your horse is still new to your place. I recommend going slow and easy, being gentle and firm, and not pushing him for now. I'd ride him at a walk only for awhile until he calms down a bit.

Put in your mind this idea--"Poor little horse, you're in a new place, you are scared. Well I'm boss, I'm tougher than anything that could hurt you, you can trust me. I'm in charge, I'll protect you."

Feel that way about him--don't get anxious, "what'll he do next?" Instead take it one step at a time--new horse in a new place, he's nervous and anxious, you have to the leader and the calm one.

Also--
What's his age, what's he eating? Stall or pasture? We need more info.

[Arrow]

LP--I did a HUGE edit, should have just replied again...but look up if you haven't!:)

[cloedoll]

As Arrow said, have his teeth been floated recently? Will start there, lol. ;D

[Lakota's Pet]

I haven't been riding him a lot, just once a week or so, with my sister. We kind of poke around the house a little, mainly walking. I had his teeth floated when we brought him home, mainly because we didn't know when or if they had been done. He only does it when he doesn't get his way. In the arena or out on the trail if he's just walking along, he is relaxed, doesn't chew, no problems really. But the minute you ask him to do something he doesn't want to, even something as simple as reverse direction the head throwing starts till he either figures out I'm going to make him do it, or gets his way. The only other thing we have found is that he carries his tail crooked, and kind of dog tracks on the trail. We have an appt with a chiro to come look at him. So we are trying to rule out pain, only seems to do it when you make him do something he doesn't want to. He is 8 years old, is out with 6 other horses during the day with free choice grass hay, and when he is stalled at night he gets 3 flakes of grass hay, and 1 lb 14% mixed feed. I'm not sure exactly what the feed is, we buy it from our local feed mill. But it is definately a mix. I have no idea what his history is, as I bought him at an auction. I got his regiatration papers, adn some health certifiactes from when he had been moved and his current coggins. The only thing I do know is he has been moved around a lot in the last few years, just don't know why.

[WashingtonBay]

I bought an 8 yr old paint back in early August. The first few times I rode him he was great. Now when he gets frustrated or scared he throws his head back. He has almost hit me a few times with the top of his head. And another time when he didn't get his way he reared on my dad. We have a tie down on him now, just for safety reasons, since he won't bother with it on. I know that is a temporary thing, but I am not sure what to do training wise to fix it. I wondered if anybody had some ideas on how to fix this. I want to get the tie down off as soon as I can.

I think if it's not his teeth, or anything painful about the bit itself (we haven't asked what kind of bit it is) then it's behavioral. It's simple "I don't wanna".

When you apply pressure, the horse has two choices, fight it, or submit to it. It's always a choice for the horse to obey or not, we can't ever forget that.

There are exercises Clinton Anderson in particular does that teach them to give to pressure, not fight it. He teaches them to flex the head around to your boot on either side. Low and around. The first couple times you try this they will circle, say woah and ask them to bend again. When they bend without moving their feet, release it. Do it the other way. You're looking for them to bend low, not high. Your boot, not your knee. Always release when they give. This teaches them that the way to avoid pressure is to give to it, not fight it.

When you've taught them that giving down and around in each direction is the way to avoid pressure to the side, then when you apply it from both sides, they should seek to avoid it by giving down and back, instead of up. I think it does work.

If Harleys Owner sees this, I think she has some terrific pictures that demonstrate these exercises.

[Harleys Owner]

I bought an 8 yr old paint back in early August. The first few times I rode him he was great. Now when he gets frustrated or scared he throws his head back. He has almost hit me a few times with the top of his head. And another time when he didn't get his way he reared on my dad. We have a tie down on him now, just for safety reasons, since he won't bother with it on. I know that is a temporary thing, but I am not sure what to do training wise to fix it. I wondered if anybody had some ideas on how to fix this. I want to get the tie down off as soon as I can.

1. Why is he frustrated or scared? Those are training issues.

2. Have his teeth checked.

3. Once that is done, check your hands...how are you responding when he is frustrated or scared.

4. Do flexing exercises at a stand still. This is what you will be striving for. You have to work at it at first, because the horses first reaction is to circle. You want them to flex without circling. Use voice and leg commands to keep them still, but flexing. They will not flex all the way around at first. To start pull one rein at a time towards your hip, but let off as soon as they respond. The goal is all the way around to your stirrup with light pressure.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=124&pictureid=1871

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=124&pictureid=1872

This horse had always been rode in a tie down, until I discovered this exercise, (from a Clinton Anderson clinic I went too). It took a very short time before he didn't need it anymore after doing this. The principle is they need to learn lateral giving to the bit before they will learn vertical giving. The key is letting off the pressure as soon as they give. So once again, I want to stress, check what your hands are doing on the bit to see if you are giving him proper relief at the proper times.

[Harleys Owner]

I think if it's not his teeth, or anything painful about the bit itself (we haven't asked what kind of bit it is) then it's behavioral. It's simple "I don't wanna".

When you apply pressure, the horse has two choices, fight it, or submit to it. It's always a choice for the horse to obey or not, we can't ever forget that.

There are exercises Clinton Anderson in particular does that teach them to give to pressure, not fight it. He teaches them to flex the head around to your boot on either side. Low and around. The first couple times you try this they will circle, say woah and ask them to bend again. When they bend without moving their feet, release it. Do it the other way. You're looking for them to bend low, not high. Your boot, not your knee. Always release when they give. This teaches them that the way to avoid pressure is to give to it, not fight it.

When you've taught them that giving down and around in each direction is the way to avoid pressure to the side, then when you apply it from both sides, they should seek to avoid it by giving down and back, instead of up. I think it does work.

If Harleys Owner sees this, I think she has some terrific pictures that demonstrate these exercises.

LOL...HO saw it and posted the pictures before I saw your post:) Great minds huh!

Personally, my first thoughts are it is not his teeth also, but I guess it doesn't hurt to have them checked.

[WashingtonBay]

LOL...HO saw it and posted the pictures before I saw your post:) Great minds huh!

Personally, my first thoughts are it is not his teeth also, but I guess it doesn't hurt to have them checked.

Indeed! :D

[Harleys Owner]

Indeed! :D

Did I explain it well enough?

[WashingtonBay]

I think so.... you've got another series of pictures using Harley as an example on how to start it from the ground, but you may know better than I do whether that step is necessary.

[Lakota's Pet]

I had his teeth checked, so I don't think that's an issue. He mostly gets frustrated, I think because he hasn't ever been MADE to do something he didn't want to. I have found that he is a bully and tries to push me around. I don't have a round pen (not yet any way, coming in the spring) so I have been working on leading, giving to pressure, flexing, and and ant other exercises I can think of on the ground. I want to teach him to respect me, and also finish off the training that seems to have been started, but was never completely finished. I was riding at my trainers barn last time he did it before I used the tie down, and she told me that my hands appeared to be steady, even pressure( I was trying to stop him), and level with my saddle horn. I ride him right now with a french link snaffle, as he does not neck rein, and I didn't want to start with a lot of bit. I'm afraid if I put a more aggressive bit in his mouth it will aggravate the issue. I will definately work on lateral flexing with him. He does not seem to have much respect for a bit right now and I think that would really help. Any help and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[WashingtonBay]

I ride him right now with a french link snaffle, as he does not neck rein, and I didn't want to start with a lot of bit. I'm afraid if I put a more aggressive bit in his mouth it will aggravate the issue.

Maybe, maybe not... upping the bit will not, in itself, solve the issue at any rate. At this point it may just make him react up MORE.

When you've done all those exercises, and Becky does them frequently still, every time she mounts up, any time it seems the horse is getting strong on her. When he knows how to do them and what you want, it may or may not be that you will want a different bit. It depends. I rode Bay in a snaffle for years, and he was OK, resistant and strong when he wanted to be, but controllable. I did up him to either a kimberwicke or a mechanical hack for trail and couldn't be happier, because my hands can be lighter, all the time, even when there is a difference in opinion.

The horse should know how to give to pressure anyway, and the exercises above will really help, in your snaffle. Once he knows, then the choice in bit is clearer and based on how strong or sensitive he really turns out to be, and how strong or sensitive you want to be.

[cloedoll]

I don't have a round pen

I want to teach him to respect me

I have found that he is a bully and tries to push me around.

I just wanted to say that you do not need a round pen to fix these issues, or a round pen at all. Can they be helpful? Sure can. Are they a necessity if you own a horse? I wouldn't say so. xD

[Lakota's Pet]

I wasn't saying that I needed a round pen for what I want to accomplish. I said it so if someone had a suggestion for a round pen exercise, it may not work for me in some situations. I think it may be a great tool when we do get one. My biggest problem is that I don't have a "controlled" area to work him. I don't have an arena, and our pasture is about 9 acres, with no dividers. We don't seperate under normal circumstances, simply because amazingly everyone gets along. I have been known to fence in my lawn if someone has an injury, or some reason they can't be with the herd, but that is only temporary. And if I offended you cloedoll, I apologize. I just reread what I typed and I sounded kind of snippy. Sorry.

[cloedoll]

I said it so if someone had a suggestion for a round pen exercise, it may not work for me in some situations.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

And if I offended you cloedoll, I apologize. I just reread what I typed and I sounded kind of snippy. Sorry.

It's all good. =P

[fire1]

I fully agree with Harley on the bending exercises they work really well. Something else that i have found to work on the short term type of thing, a way to correct it as it is happening is to carry a crop and hold it out. When he jerks his head in a disobident "i'm not doing this" sort of way he runs into your crop. It is unpleasant and makes them wonder a bit. It is by no means a wack and he is just getting a little repricution for misbehaving, doesn't hurt, but startels them a bit. I still think the bending a good thing, this is just a way of punishing them when they do it. Good luck, sure is a pain in the rear.

[Lakota's Pet]

I think carrying the crop is a good idea, except he's not going side to side with his head, he's coming straight up. And actually something I haven't had to deal with. The only thing I'm afraid of is that he's going to hit me with the top of his head. I have had him come to the point I have to put my hand up and let him run into it before he stops. I just don't want to end up with a broken nose because it him, so I put the tie down on him. At least till I can find a way to fix it.

[mustangluver]

Just sounds like a giving to the bit issue.
Is the bit the correct size?

My mustang does this sometimes cause she gets stubborn I become a brick wall, then do bending and she realizes its easier to give then to fight.

But if you do not have respect on the ground you wont have respect in the saddle, there are wholes in the training and I would right down all the issues you have, what YOU yourself have worked with him on and go fill in the holes.

[fire1]

Let me be more specific! You hold the crop over there head for them to run into. THis is what I meant to say and after reading my post again, it sure didnt' coem out that way! :rolleyes:

[Lakota's Pet]

Fire1, I understand now. It just didn't make sense to me earlier, but it does now. I know that he has some serious holes in his training. I have found that out the hard way. I also found out that he has some serious seperation issues, but that's another story. Since he's been with us, he has gotten a lot better, but still has a long way to go. But I will definately work on bending and giving to pressure, I think it will make my life a whole bunch easier. I really believe that he was just allowed to do what he wanted, and now I have to get it through his thick buckskin head that it doesn't work that way anymore.

[fire1]

I"m working with one like that right now. He doesn't toss his head, he is actually nice to ride when you can encourage him to move, bu this ground manners are atrotious, because he has been babied really badly. After a long session with me he was much better and thought better about bitting me again! Time and energy will help anything!

[Palogal]

What kind of bit are you using? Maybe if he's throwing his head and successfully evading the bit it doesn't fit correctly or it's just not a good bit for him.

[Lakota's Pet]

I'm using a french link snaffle right now. I don't think he's trying to evade the bit, because he doesn't do it all the time. It's only when he doesn't want to do something, like standing for more than 30 seconds. We went on a short trail ride this past weekend and he was great, unless he decided he wanted to be in the lead, or didn't want to turn where you want him to. Also, the bit is a 5 1/2 inch, as I tried my appendix's 5 inch when he came home and it was pinching. He has a rather large head for a paint.

[Palogal]

I love my french link, use it all the time but you might try a two piece snaffle. Who knows? He may quit arguing if he knows there's a little more bit there. Other than that...I'd use a crop and we'd have many wet saddle pads for such behavior.

[rocknK]

All good suggestions, but I think that Harley & WB nailed it. Get control of the horses head by using those bending & flexing exercises. Get your horse nice & round & soft & I think your problems will be over. Everytime the horse even thinks about raising his head stop what you're doing & bring his nose back to your knee, loose rein, hold there for a minute or two, then do the other side. Go back & forth several times like this once you first mount up just to get your horses mind on business. Good luck.:cowboy:

[Lakota's Pet]

I will try the bending exercise in the saddle this weekend. I haven't been able to ride because it gets dark so early, but I will probably Sunday. I think I am also going to change his bit. The only other thing I have right now that fits him is a kimberwick, but it's a jointed mouthpiece. I'll let you guys know how it goes. I have tried bending him a little on the ground, and he is starting to understand. I know it's going to take time, but hey, it's a start.

[Palogal]

Kimberwike is a bad idea. It's really strong and it may make his problem worse.

[WashingtonBay]

Not necessarily Palo! A kimberwick has very little leverage. It's only one small step up the ladder from a plain snaffle. It depends on how it's adjusted and how it's used, how strong it is. It might be worth a try on this older, unknown history horse. He's not a baby and he may not have been ridden in a plain snaffle for years, who knows.

I will say this, on this horse, he may be coming from a western background and does not like, or is not used to a lot of contact. My Bay came to me that way and still does not really like to ride on contact or do a lot of collection work. When you go to ask him for a woah, prep him by sitting real deep and back and 'plant' your seat as you ask for a whoa, and when he does, release him. You work on lightness by being light with him. Do the flexing exercises at the start, and stop and do them whenever he gets strong. Don't let him get strong with you, if it becomes a pulling match, even in a snaffle, stop. Lighten, Flex. :)

[Lakota's Pet]

I'm sorry I didn't explain enough. I was going to use the kimberwick without the chain and put the reins in the top hole, to get a snaffle reaction. I just want to see if maybe the 2 piece mouth will get a better reaction than the 3.

[WashingtonBay]

I wouldn't use it, or any leverage bit, without the chain on it. It's just not how the bit is designed to work. You just don't have to have the chain tight, it can be a loose amount of leverage, but I would not use it without.

[Harleys Owner]

Bits are only as harsh or light as the hands using them.

Look in the picture I posted...that is a long shank snaffle, lots of leverage...it worked fine.

[Palogal]

I'm sorry I didn't explain enough. I was going to use the kimberwick without the chain and put the reins in the top hole, to get a snaffle reaction. I just want to see if maybe the 2 piece mouth will get a better reaction than the 3.

That bit is designed to work with a chain, you can use the chain loosely but it's not designed to be used without it. If you want a snaffle reaction, you really ought to just use a snaffle.

[Lakota's Pet]

I am going to leave the chain on it, just very loosely, so it doesn't really touch him. It does not like any kind of curb, I had a short curved shank snaffle on him with a leather curb on it, and he fought it. Since I changed to the snaffle he doesn't fight it any where near as much. I would love to try a regualr snaffle, but I don't have a 5 1/2 and I can't justify buying another bit if it may not work.

[mustangluver]

Have you tried a bosal?
All my newbies get a bosal, I use it to give first. Also when the temper tantrums fly they are not getting emotional baggage from bits.

I started my wild mustang in this and she reacts MUCH better with this then a bit. Once I get her to a certain point I will use a bit, if thats the route I want to go. I am not sure if I am gonna show with her or not.

Bits are tools, leverage or not, still need to be taught HOW to accept what your asking from your hands to his mouth, you can use every bit under the sun but if hes not getting it like its second nature the problem is going to stay there.

[Lakota's Pet]

I don't think he has a problem with the bit thought, since it is not an all the time thing. Just when he doesn't want to do something, such as seperate, or thru the horse eating mud puddle. If he is happy, he's fine. He won't fuss, evade, or anything. It's just when you ask him to do something he has it in his head he's not doing, even when there is absolutely no contact on the bit.

[mustangluver]

It goes back to training, that he does not respect you on the ground why the heck would he do some thing he does not want to do with you in the saddle. He does not see you as a leader. So no matter what bit you use, it all comes back to the ground and you 2 establishing that your the leader and hes the one that has to join up with you.

[Lakota's Pet]

I realize it's a training issue. That's why I was asking for help on what to do to help with his head throwing, since I haven't had to deal with it in a long time. This is the first new horse I've had in probably 15 years. I just didn't know what other people had used as exercises to help with respect problems similar to this, that's all. I'm kind of at a loss, and I have been working on him with the flexing exercise that Harley gave me, and he is starting to give after just a couple short sessions.

[Lakota's Pet]

I just went back a read what I typed. I sounded like a witch, and it was not meant that way, I'm sorry.

[mustangluver]

Your not being a witch LOL... Good on the bending

I am hoping I am not coming off curt!! Just think if you get a lot of it on the ground it falls into place in the saddle.

sounds like a stubborn boy who is stomping his feet saying I DON'T WANNA... MAKE ME!!!

Good thing he is a hot looker right!!:p

[Lakota's Pet]

Yeah definately a good thing for him. He's not a bad horse, he's really a sweetheart. I just think that he was never made to do anything he didn't want to and he bullied his handler to get his way. I think I have my work cut out for me, but it will all be worth it.

[APPYT]

I wouldn't use it, or any leverage bit, without the chain on it. It's just not how the bit is designed to work. You just don't have to have the chain tight, it can be a loose amount of leverage, but I would not use it without.

I do all the time on my old Appy. It didn't come with a chain and I've just never bought one. I use the D ring, not a slot tho that shouldn't matter either. LOL I do use a strap on my O ring bits. LOL

[APPYT]

Yeah definately a good thing for him. He's not a bad horse, he's really a sweetheart. I just think that he was never made to do anything he didn't want to and he bullied his handler to get his way. I think I have my work cut out for me, but it will all be worth it.

Did you rule out pain? I recall you mentioning he carries his tail a bit crooked.. Maybe it's nothing, but I'd watch for resistance that could be pain related just in case.

It does sound like he's beginning to listen as you say he's starting to give to the bit. :) Good luck.. Btw, I do use my kimberwick without a chain on my old Appy(he's blind). If you are light handed you can use it that way to see if he likes the single joint, but I doubt he will. ;)

[WashingtonBay]

I do all the time on my old Appy. It didn't come with a chain and I've just never bought one. I use the D ring, not a slot tho that shouldn't matter either. LOL I do use a strap on my O ring bits. LOL

You might do it all the time, and many horses may not complain, but it's not the way the bit was designed to work. Generally, if the bit has a connection point to the bridle that is not where the reins connect (ie. is not a plain snaffle), then using it without a curb lifts and rotates the bit in a way that's not intended when you use it. Look at it on the horse and how it moves when you apply the rein, both with and without the chain on.

[APPYT]

I understand that, however a kimberwick has a very mild curb action due to the D ring rather than a true shank. If you leave the curb chain very loose the action would be the same as without a chain at all. On a curb bit with longer shanks there would be a greater difference. All I am saying is a kimberwick is an inbetween bit. Not much curb action but yes a bit more than a snaffle. If you use the large *D* ring over either of the small slots you will have much less of a curb action and more of a snaffle action. D rings, O rings, full cheeks, etc all have slightly different feels as well due to the loose or solid connection of the mouth piece in relation to the rings. Btw, my kimberwick has a billy allen mouth piece and I believe it is milder than one with a broken mouth or a port.

Just a difference of opinion. ;)

[Lakota's Pet]

[QUOTE=APPYT;16033]Did you rule out pain? I recall you mentioning he carries his tail a bit crooked..

We have a chiro coming out during the week to look at him. We just want to make sure that may not be part of the problem. I don't think it is, but I just want to be sure. He doesn't do it all the time. Walking down the trail he is perfectly fine, head level, and completely relaxed. And he will do it on the ground to, when he doesn't want to do something. I think it's just his way of resisting, but I'm just afraid he is going to get violent about it. I haven't been able to ride, as it's deer season here. Buckskin horse, hunter with a gun, not a good mix. But I have been doing a little ground work with him, especially the flexing exercise mentioned earlier in here. He will turn his head about 90 degrees in either direction without moving. So I figure that's a good start, and that's only a couple times of playing with him on it. So we are starting to get somewhere. I tried the kimberwick on him, just for a few minutes with the chain set loosely, and he seemed ok with it. I think I'm going to leave it on for a while and see how it goes. I can always change it back if it doesn't work.

[cowgirlup@idaho]

If a horse is throwing his head and pain, etc. is ruled out, then the horse is either saying "I don't want to and you can't make me" or "what do you want?"

If his head is coming up with force (almost hitting your face) then his hindend is locking up (braceing) and a good heel in the ribs on both sides should send him forward. At this time the rein needs to be loose, not a big loop but no contact for the moment, that way he can move forward. At this time if he has anymore tricks in his bag you may see them so be prepared.

Harley has given the best 'teaching' tool for you, sometimes you have to make it to where they have no choice but to be a good student. :D

[Lakota's Pet]

We tried pushing him forward last time he did this without the tie down, and he ended up straight in the air, even with NO contact at all on the bit. So he has a tie down temporarily till we can fix the training issues. Just as a safety measure, since he hasn't tried anything since the tie down has been on. I think he was always ridden with one and understands he can only go so far.

[APPYT]

[QUOTE=APPYT;16033]Did you rule out pain? I recall you mentioning he carries his tail a bit crooked..

We have a chiro coming out during the week to look at him. We just want to make sure that may not be part of the problem. I don't think it is, but I just want to be sure. He doesn't do it all the time. Walking down the trail he is perfectly fine, head level, and completely relaxed. And he will do it on the ground to, when he doesn't want to do something. I think it's just his way of resisting, but I'm just afraid he is going to get violent about it. I haven't been able to ride, as it's deer season here. Buckskin horse, hunter with a gun, not a good mix. But I have been doing a little ground work with him, especially the flexing exercise mentioned earlier in here. He will turn his head about 90 degrees in either direction without moving. So I figure that's a good start, and that's only a couple times of playing with him on it. So we are starting to get somewhere. I tried the kimberwick on him, just for a few minutes with the chain set loosely, and he seemed ok with it. I think I'm going to leave it on for a while and see how it goes. I can always change it back if it doesn't work.

I understand the deer hunting problem totally. We are in bow season right now so not a big issue yet. Great time to do that ground work tho. ;) Settles that dangit I wanna ride issue. I also understand the worry he may blow up. And it is very possible he was ridden in a tie down and so when he throws his head up he "expects" to hit that barrier. *i saw you mention this and thought yes, very possible* I hope he gets with the program and nothing is physically bothering him.