What kind of bit is this [Archive] - Baywind Farm Horse Forum

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root tootin' scoot

03-29-2009, 02:27 PM

Just wondering what type of bit this is
http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr357/pengin1101/bit.jpg

Thanks:D

WashingtonBay

03-29-2009, 02:35 PM

Well, I'd call it a long shanked broken mouth curb... some might call it a pelham because you might conceivably be able to connect a snaffle rein to it.

root tootin' scoot

03-29-2009, 02:37 PM

is there any specific disipline its used for?

IrisGreen

03-29-2009, 02:44 PM

Looks like a snaffle extra long shank bit or a long version of a tomthumb? I wouldn't use it. That bit would be awful if pulled on by heavy hands not to mention confusing for the horse. Especially if there was a curb chain attached.

The only way I would use that bit is if I had too and the horse neck reined so I wouldn't have to direct rein in it.

Maybe it's good for something but I have no idea what? Head setting? I'm just guessing :)

WashingtonBay

03-29-2009, 03:42 PM

is there any specific disipline its used for?

Well, it's a western bit... It's definitely not an english bit.

Remali

03-29-2009, 03:53 PM

A curb would have to have the curb mouthpiece, that is a snaffle mouthpiece. Snaffle w/shanks....

http://www.rods.com/dg/229,123_Shank-Snaffle-Bits.html

WashingtonBay

03-29-2009, 04:00 PM

Well, Remali, that gets into semantics of the definition of 'curb'. In the definition I accept, 'curb' means shanks and a curb chain, even with a broken or jointed mouthpiece.

Snaffle to me means a jointed mouthpiece (usually) but no leverage.

I don't have a problem with people calling it a shanked snaffle, I know what it means and it's perfectly descriptive, but it's definitely a curb bit.

Cat

03-29-2009, 04:00 PM

A curb would have to have the curb mouthpiece, that is a snaffle mouthpiece. Snaffle w/shanks....

http://www.rods.com/dg/229,123_Shank-Snaffle-Bits.html

That is incorrect. A curb bit is traditionally defined as a bit with shanks that uses a curb strap. A snaffle is a bit that uses direct rein pressure. You can not use direct rein pressure with a bit with shanks, thus it can not be a snaffle. The mouth peice has nothing to do with if its a snaffle or curb. You can get snaffles in solid bars and you can get curbs with broke mouth peices. You can't go by the catalogs because those are put together by people wanting to market the bit - and they call it whatever they think will sell it even if its not correct.

The bit in question reminds me of a "Walking Horse Bit". The long shanks is suppose to be so the rider can communicate with the horse with no preceived movement in their hands.

WashingtonBay

03-29-2009, 04:04 PM

Walking horse bits look a little different, but I can't tell if the difference is in style or function:

walking horse bit - Google Image Search (http://images.google.com/images?q=walking%20horse%20bit&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi)

Cat

03-29-2009, 04:13 PM

I'm wondering if its a type of long-shanked gag bit - does the mouthpeice slide up and down on the shank?

Miracle Whip

03-29-2009, 04:19 PM

Give me a break, that is NOT a Walking horse bit - because I have one and the bar that is in the mouth is very very sloppy, not fixed. The horse can move the bit up and down on his tongue, which helps him bobble his head and do the Running walk. At least that is the way I understood it.

I have much the same bit in my tack box, it was inherited somehow, picked up at an auction with other things. I have never used it. Believe it or not, I think the shanks on mine is even longer!!

WashingtonBay

03-29-2009, 04:23 PM

I'm wondering if its a type of long-shanked gag bit - does the mouthpeice slide up and down on the shank?

It doesn't look like it does, but hard to tell.

root tootin' scoot

03-29-2009, 04:30 PM

pasolover2

03-30-2009, 10:11 AM

Walking horse bits come with different style shanks, from a 4" to as much as 10" in length and different types of mouth pieces like any other bit. I have a walking horse bit with 4" shanks and a curb style mouthpiece we used on the little walker we used to own. The bit pictured looks much like a walking horse bit, maybe one of the old style as bits, like anything else, will some times change in style as to shanks. I may be wrong, but I have seen many walking horse bits where I live and this looks much like one a late friend used to use on his walking horse.

WashingtonBay

03-30-2009, 10:26 AM

root tootin' scoot

03-30-2009, 11:52 AM

Yeah well I figured that out from what Iris green said.
I decided after that I wasnt going to buy it.
But idk anything about bits other than she listens to a grazing bit the best and that she needs a big one.

Remali

03-30-2009, 07:25 PM

Well WB...seeing as a curb bit works on the bars of a horse's mouth.....how can a snaffle be called a curb since a snaffle does not work on the bars of a horse's mouth?

WashingtonBay

03-30-2009, 07:35 PM

Well WB...seeing as a curb bit works one the bars of a horse's mouth.....how can a snaffle be called a curb since a snaffle does not work on the bars of a horse's mouth?

Because curb, to me, is defined by a leverage action with shanks and a 'curb chain' (or strap), not the mouthpiece.

It's not just me that defines them this way, though I think much of this is semantics.

From wikipedia: Curb bit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_bit)

Curb bit

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A curb bit is a type of bit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_%28horse%29) used for riding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equestrianism) horses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse) that uses lever action...

Mouthpiece

The curb bit's mouthpiece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_mouthpiece) controls the pressure on the tongue, roof of the mouth, and bars. A mullen mouth places even pressure on the bars and tongue. A port places more pressure on the bars, but provides room for the tongue. A high port may act on the roof of the mouth as it touches. Some western style curbs, particularly the Spade Bit, have both a straight bar mouthpiece and a high welded port., thus acting on the bars, tongue and palate. In the wrong hands, such bits can be extremely severe, but on an exquisitely trained animal, they allow the rider to communicate with the horse with a simple touch of the fingertips to the reins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rein).

Curb bits can also be purchased with a variety of jointed mouthpieces that are sometimes mistakenly called "snaffles", some of which (like the twisted wire) can further increase severity. Jointed mouthpieces increase the pressure on the bars due to the nutcracker action of the mouthpiece. In addition, the joint angle is altered by the shank leverate to tip the bit downward and into the tongue. These bits, sometimes called "cowboy snaffles" due to their popularity among western riders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_riding), are actually more harsh than a curb with a simple, solid, ported mouthpiece.

Peggy Sue

03-30-2009, 07:52 PM

long shanked limited gag bit :)

outriding01

03-30-2009, 10:20 PM

The terms "curb" and "snaffle" have absolutely nothing to do with the mouthpiece. They describe the way pressure from the reins is exerted - for snaffles it's directly on the bars of the mouth and for curbs it's through leverage.

Remali

03-31-2009, 07:15 AM

Well, I'm not sure where Wikipedia gets its info from. I just go by what the trainers say.

Flair

03-31-2009, 07:35 AM

Mouthpiece doesn't matter though, Remali. A curb bit can have a broken mouthpiece, a snaffle bit can have a mullen mouth straight bar. It's where the reins go, and how they affect the horse's mouth (direct pressure, leverage, etc.)

Wikipedia is usually pretty good on facts. Good information to be found there, most of the time. It gets fact-checked too, so I imagine they're correct.

outriding01

03-31-2009, 09:08 AM

Here's an article quoting trainer Jessica Jahiel:
http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/tack_apparel/bit_gallery/bittypes/

"Most people assume that because the snaffle is usually a jointed bit and the curb usually is not, the mouthpiece is what determines whether a particular bit is a snaffle or a curb. However, according to veteran horse trainer, Jessica Jahiel, the difference between snaffles and curbs has nothing to do with the mouthpiece. The difference between the two types of bit is that the snaffle is a non-leverage bit and the curb is a leverage bit."

root tootin' scoot

03-31-2009, 02:59 PM

Everyone is so argumentative these days :popcorn:

miatapony

03-31-2009, 03:42 PM

folding chairs and popcorn ....:popcorn:

luvs2ride1979

04-01-2009, 10:32 AM

Just wondering what type of bit this is
http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr357/pengin1101/bit.jpg

Thanks:D

I don't know if anyone has already said, but it looks like walking horse bit crossed with an Argentine "snaffle".

I found one similar, the "extended shank" wonder bit, bottom right.
http://www.grissombits.com/patentedbits.html

Ahh HA! Found it!
http://www.kyhorse.com/store/tack/bits/pelham/
"Long Shank Snaffle Bit"
http://www.americantacksupply.com/loshsnbi.html

luvs2ride1979

04-01-2009, 10:34 AM

Well, I'm not sure where Wikipedia gets its info from. I just go by what the trainers say.

I learned long ago to never trust what comes out of a trainer's mouth, lol. They rarely know more than you or I, most just think they do :rolleyes:.

luvs2ride1979

04-01-2009, 10:41 AM

I was thinking about buying it... so idk if it slides.
The only reason I was looking at it is because I am looking for tack for our perchie and it's 5.5"
Most of the bits we find are 5" which is getting to be to small for her and she only listens to a grazing bit...
Cause shes stubborn... >.<
So yeah...

You might look at 5.5" Kimberwhick or Pelham bits. A Kimberwhick would allow you to direct rein and pull back to stop, but give you more control (with the rein in the bottom slot). They come in low port mouth pieces.
http://www.equestriancollections.com/itemmatrix.asp?groupcode=WB00990
http://www.equestriancollections.com/itemmatrix.asp?groupcode=ER00275
http://www.equestriancollections.com/itemmatrix.asp?groupcode=WB00987

You'd need to use two reins with the Pelham, or a bit converter that connects both rings and the reins to the converter.
http://www.equestriancollections.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=WB00167R
http://www.uksaddlery.com/usrimage/358gd.jpg

WashingtonBay

04-01-2009, 11:33 AM

I like the Kimberwicke idea... and the low port mouthpiece might be good if the horse likes a grazing bit now but I find them rather stiff and usually prefer the jointed.

outriding01

04-01-2009, 08:29 PM

Bit converters make using a pelham completely pointless for the most part.....

rocknK

04-01-2009, 09:21 PM

I think they are more to protect the horse from riders with cr@ppy hands. JMHO.

luvs2ride1979

04-02-2009, 06:17 AM

Bit converters make using a pelham completely pointless for the most part.....

Converters turn it in to a slightly more powerful kimberwhick.

Joey A

04-02-2009, 07:53 AM

Well WB...seeing as a curb bit works on the bars of a horse's mouth.....how can a snaffle be called a curb since a snaffle does not work on the bars of a horse's mouth?

I've never heard that one before. So then what does the snaffle work on?

Joey A

04-02-2009, 07:56 AM

Bit converters make using a pelham completely pointless for the most part.....

I've never heard of one before, but I'd agree with you.

Joey A

04-02-2009, 08:02 AM

There are so many bits out there now that are bastardized versions of something else. It's just somebody tweaking something to make a buck.

It looks to me like a Argentine bit with extended shanks, and an extra brace to keep the shank from bending. (I've seen r-tards do that before cranking on the horses face.)

As far as walking horse bits go.....

http://www.worldchampionhorseequipment.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=292

WCHE is a TWH specialty shop located directly across from the Celebration showgrounds.

WashingtonBay

04-02-2009, 08:02 AM

I used a bit converter on a Pelham at Arab shows when I was showing hunt seat... switched to double reins for Saddle Seat. It works OK.

I know at the hunter shows most of you show at a Pelham would be frowned upon anyway, with or without the converter, but not at Arab shows. They're snooty about a lot of things, but not that. ;)

Joey A

04-02-2009, 08:05 AM

Converters turn it in to a slightly more powerful kimberwhick.

That would be entirely dependant on the horses build, head carriage, riders hand position, curb adjustment, and finally the length of the converter, and how well the rein slides across the loop on the converter.

And that's just looking at it from a purely mechanical/geometrical point of view.

outriding01

04-03-2009, 08:22 AM

Converters don't allow the reins to work independently of each other. I personally don't care if a person uses one or not.... I'm not a snob ;). I just find it a little funny. If you want a slightly more pwerful kimberwick, then that's what I'd buy. And if a rider has crappy hands, they shouldn't be using a pelham anyways.

WB- I agree, the Arab world is definitely different from the H/J circuit! But pelhams are actually the "in-style" bit in the equitation ring. I placed second in a medal once because the girl who placed first had a pelham, even though I tested slightly better than her. Her halt after a trot fence was not pretty at all..... Anyways, I ended up switching to a pelham just for that reason, even though the horse I was using went fine in a snaffle. As a side note, fullcheeks are definitely the most "unstylish" bit for anyone riding in a level higher than short-stirrup. No idea why, just thought it'd be interesting to note.

I'm not gonna lie, if a bit converters were what it took to win a class, I'd have them on in a heartbeat. If you can handle a pelham with double reins without hurting your horse, you can handle a pelham with a converter, lol.

Remali

04-03-2009, 08:39 AM

luvs2ride. I have known this trainer since 1972, and she has won a National Championship in Prix St George dressage and her daughter won the Gold Medal in dressage, so I do trust her. Also, a couple other trainers I know are really pretty reliable and one trained with Lynn Palm, so I do trust what they tell me. I guess trainers do have differing opinions, just like everyone else. lol. Altho I do agree with you....there are some very bad trainers out there and I do know quite a few that probably should not even use the title "trainer"....lol.

root tootin scoot.....does your horse still go well in that grazing bit? I wonder if there is a tack shop that may be able to order you the larger size mouthpiece if she needs a 5 and a half?

root tootin' scoot

04-07-2009, 06:31 PM

yes remali that is virtually the only thing she'll listen to...brat:rolleyes:

zoel_222

04-07-2009, 07:07 PM

I thought a grazing bit was gentle....

WashingtonBay

04-07-2009, 07:16 PM

I thought a grazing bit was gentle....

Among curbs, it definitely is. It's a simple bit, not harsh, but it does have some leverage, so it would be a step up from a plain snaffle.

zoel_222

04-07-2009, 07:18 PM

Among curbs, it definitely is. It's a simple bit, not harsh, but it does have some leverage, so it would be a step up from a plain snaffle.

ah ok :)

Peggy Sue

04-08-2009, 05:00 AM

if all she wll listen to is a curb bit she needs taken back to the basics and retrained...

Tiz

04-08-2009, 03:09 PM

"Bit converters make using a pelham completely pointless for the most part....."

That's what I was thinking.

natisha

04-08-2009, 04:17 PM

I always thought that with a pelham you used the snaffle rein or the curb rein, not both at the same time.

Snaffle- direct contact from hand to mouth. Ex: 1 pound of pull = 1 pound of pressure

Curb- indirect line from hand to mouth EX: 1 pound of pull = >1 pound of pressure depending on the lenght of the shafts.

So many catalogs/sales people etc. refer to bits incorrectly that there has always been confusion. Try taking the bit in the OP's question into an english class where a snaffle or double bridle is required & see what happens.

WashingtonBay

04-08-2009, 05:43 PM

It's not an english bit... so you'd get some looks if you did that.

With a pelham, you use both the snaffle and the curb at the same time, each in the amount you need. What the converter does is take away your ability to fine tune, it's going to pull on both 50:50

MNHorsegal

04-08-2009, 05:56 PM

It shouldn't be hard to find a 5.5" grazing bit. They are very common and popular because they are gentle, simple, but still provide enough leverage to be a good western style riding bit.

http://www.horseloverz.com/Metalab-Stainless-Steel-Medium-Port-C-Bit-Stainless-Steel-5-1-2-pr-338941.html

MNHorsegal

04-08-2009, 05:58 PM

Well WB...seeing as a curb bit works on the bars of a horse's mouth.....how can a snaffle be called a curb since a snaffle does not work on the bars of a horse's mouth?

I am just wondering your reasoning here (Or the trainer's), but what part of the horse, pray tell, are you suggesting that snaffle bits DO work on??

natisha

04-09-2009, 06:04 AM

Stalknndashadows

04-09-2009, 06:10 AM

Ok, as I can barely handle 2 reins, much less 4, I'm wondering why someone would use a converter at all?

For a multitude of reason

1) lazy...
2) don't know how to use the bit properly...
3) are using is solely for its looks...
4) don't care...

Don't worry about the 4 reins though... they are MUCH easier to hold when the reins are the proper sizes.