What's up with Cloe?

[cloedoll]

Instead of updating the thread that I had posted in General Chat (Need some ideas... (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6708)) I figured I would just make a new thread and post updates here.

To get everyone up to speed, Cloe has been not her normal self lately and just...weird. Here's the short list of what is going on:

--She normally adores jumping and never refuses but she has been refusing even the smallest of jumps. However she is doing better than ever on the flat! Her ears are even forward and they never are when I'm riding her so that's huge for her. This makes me thing she is just bored with jumping but it's not like I jump her every day and she is in shape enough to jump so I don't think that is it either.

--I feel so stupid for not remembering the right term for this but whatever it is called when a horse locks three of their legs and one of their legs is resting, she has been doing that more than usual lately but not on the same foot. It's normally out in the pasture, she'll walk around, hear something, prick her ears forward and relax on of her hooves. It's odd because I would think if she heard something, she would want to be in a good position to be able to run (if need be, which it wouldn't but she doesn't know that) but instead she locks three of her legs? That makes a ton of sense but who knows, maybe she's just that relaxed, lmao. I didn't want to not mention it though.

--She's awfully flinchy at random times. I went up to her in the pasture and touched her belly and she flinched like crazy. I thought it might be because she thought it was a fly but the flies weren't out that day. Who knows and again, I know this may seem pointless and could just be Spring time but I wanted to mention it.

She has absolutely zero back pain, I've pressed all over her hooves and stretched her legs, poll, neck, etc. and again, no signs of pain at all. I thought her back might be out of whack but she isn't showing any signs of pain like how she was before when she was unaligned.

The vet is coming out on Thursday (April 9) for vaccinations so I'll definitely mention a few things to him but I wanted to hear what your thoughts were. I know this is kind of a random list but I know Cloe SO well and I just know when something is even slightly off...I'm not crazy! :p With my luck, Cloe will be back to normal tomorrow. :rolleyes:

Hope this isn't a "pointless thread" I just thought it would be easier to have everything in one place and I'll just post any updates here.

[alittleoffkey]

I'd have the vet check her vision. The locking of her legs wouldn't fit, but she might not be sleeping as much and trying to rest when she can... if more things are looking like scary shadows. That's not worded well, but you get the point. :)

Also, I know you've thought about it - but I second the cysts and ulcers theories. I hope it's nothing, that she's just bored with what you've been doing and she's just being odd because of something else going on... but better safe than sorry. ;) Cloe's so lucky. :)

[cloedoll]

I was thinking vision at first as well so I'll definitely ask him to do that...it can't hurt to check, right? :D I know what you mean haha...I think she's sleeping alright, when I go outside at random times in the night, she's out laying in the pasture...head down and all lol...I catch her taking naps at all kinds of times...but I really can't know for sure, I guess I'm more just hoping she's sleeping okay? :p I can also bring up the cyst/ulcers thing to the vet. My fingers are crossed she's just being...Cloe. Thanks for the post Em! :)

[WashingtonBay]

How old is cloe?

My thought is there's something sore that happens jumping and not so much other times, either in the hocks (first suspect) at takeoff, or the front end, at landing.

I'd have the vet flex test her and see if anything at all shows up. Be prepared to do a lot of running that day.

The other symptoms, I'm not seeing as related yet... but who knows.

[moka]

Not to be difficult or anything but she might just be a little down with not having a companion around.

[vicklynn]

Not sure what it could be.
Wbs and ALOKs replies sound like a possibility.
What ever it is or isnt, Prayers up that all is well.
((HUGS))

[cloedoll]

WashingtonBay - I don't know her age for sure but the vet estimated her to be twelve. I could have him do that (flex test). The other "symptoms" could just be Springtime or something silly, I was mostly worried about her always resting on her hooves.

moka - I was waiting for someone to mention that, lol. When I said in the first post that Cloe hasn't been her normal self, I don't mean personality wise, more just the things I mentioned...it's not normal "Cloe behavior" if you know what I mean. She's actually been happier lately, even my father noticed and I get crap from him ALL the time how I ruined Cloe by making her live alone, I screwed Keidas over and how stupid I am for making the decision I did. :rolleyes: Oh and my dad knows nothing about horses haha, I mean the first time he was around horses was a year after I bought Cloe and Keidas (he was in Hawai'i for the first year my mom, sister and I moved here to Pennsylvania). So him saying she's happier kind of says something because I'm not telling him she's happier to try and win him over or something, he just noticed it on his own. So yeah to sum all that up, she really has been a happier pony, her missing hair patches from Keidas biting her are finally healed up, I see her actually relaxing in the pasture, she enjoys being ridden now and the list goes on. Sorry for the long post but I know a lot of people disagree with having a horse live alone and I can completley understand why, I never wanted to have a horse live alone but after seeing how well Laredo (laredo454's) horse does alone, that made me see that horses can do excellent living alone. Certain things came up in life that made me realize the best decision was to sell Keidas, I can't change that he's gone now and if I could do it all over again, I would make the same choice because things are working out great for everyone (Cloe, Keidas, me). I know none of you can be here and see for yourselves but Cloe really is doing well by herself, of course not all horses do but she really is...trust me on that one. :)

Vicky - Thanks so much! :)

[Miracle Whip]

Spring heat cycle. Or a concurrent female thing? Wouldn't a uterus problem make her not feel like jumping? My mare can be lazy in the spring sometimes and difficult - like one year she wouldn't go along the rail to save her soul. It got better as the riding season progressed but she was a snot there for a while.

[cloedoll]

It could be Miracle Whip or maybe she's about to...last year I don't believe she had a single cycle...I don't know about the uterus thing but I can mention it to the vet. And you could be right, it might just be Spring time haha but I'll mention all of this to my vet. =)

[HeartofSteel]

Ovarian Cysts are also something to watch out for or ulcers, Mia had a few of the signs also.

[cloedoll]

What are the signs? Or if you know have a site that explains ti well or something...xD

ETA: Nevermind, I found a good site. I'll again, ask my vet. I'll keep you guys updated of course.

[HeartofSteel]

Haha ok :)

[FredRock]

Did she know you were there when she flinched? Cheyenne can be weird like that sometimes, really touchy one day and fine the next.

Fred cocks his back legs all the time. He can go from resting one to running in a snap, and believe me, I've seen it in action (one end of the pasture to the other to get away from me). Does she do it on her front legs too, or just the back? Any one in particular more than the other? Fred has a "bad" leg, one that's worse with arthritis than the other, so he usually rests it all the time.

I second a stress test, I know you don't jump her everyday, but you have been jumping her for a while, she might have some kind of pain only when jumping or have the beginnings of arthritis.

[cloedoll]

Did she know you were there when she flinched? Cheyenne can be weird like that sometimes, really touchy one day and fine the next.Yes she knew but all the times it happened she was focused on something else (like eating hay). So maybe that solves that, I just thought I'd mention it in case it was some sign of something crazy lol.

Fred cocks his back legs all the time. He can go from resting one to running in a snap, and believe me, I've seen it in action (one end of the pasture to the other to get away from me). Does she do it on her front legs too, or just the back? Any one in particular more than the other? Fred has a "bad" leg, one that's worse with arthritis than the other, so he usually rests it all the time.THAT IS THE WORD! Omg, I seriously could not think of that, cocks their back legs, lmbo. Never her front legs, always the back and no particular leg.

I second a stress test, I know you don't jump her everyday, but you have been jumping her for a while, she might have some kind of pain only when jumping or have the beginnings of arthritis.How long is a while considered to be? Lol, I really only started jumping her last summer and that was 1x-2x a week and nothing higher than 2' almost all the time. When Taylor visited we did jump her higher (3') and she was very willing and happy to jump it...did someone mention a stress test or is that the flex test? Sorry, I'm not the best with terms. :o

Thanks for posting FredRock. :)

[WashingtonBay]

Well, horses are complex athletes... and jumping is athletic. There's lots of reasons it might be stressing something that doesn't show up on the flat, and potentially, there's ways to manage that if you knew what it was.

For instance, her past incidence of founder. That might be showing up as a sensitivity to the higher impact of jumping. Not inconceivable at all. The first place such things would show up is in the most athletic thing you try... Same with bit of arthritis or ringbone. So I hope your vet is real good with movement and lameness.... not all are, because that's where I'd look.

[FredRock]

I think my vet calls it a stress test, but yeah it's also a flex test. Like WB said, if there is a problem, it shows up in the most athletic thing. If there is a real problem, it will eventually trickle down to the easier things.

[cloedoll]

Ah, I see. Well I will keep you guys updated and definitely mention everything to my vet. I hope he's good with movement/lamness, too...

[Gypsy Rose]

I'm sort of leaning in the same direction WB is- sometimes when you try something new, especially if it's something that involves more impact on the legs and hooves, it can take a while before a horse will show any signs of a problem. And if she's foundered before, that could definitely make impact a possible issue that wouldn't show up on the flat.

[MNHorsegal]

Keeping all those things in mind, they may or may not be related.

She may be refusing because her feet are sore. She may be flinchy because of weather changes. She may be cocking a leg because of soreness, or maybe she hasn't found a good place to lie, so she is resting. Most horses do this a good portion of the day.


But before checking all that, I personally would check to see if her udders are clean. It has probably been muddy and she may be sensitive about her belly because of that. Heck, she could even be getting rubbed by something when going over a jump, so she doesn't want to do it anymore.

[cloedoll]

But before checking all that, I personally would check to see if her udders are clean. It has probably been muddy and she may be sensitive about her belly because of that. Heck, she could even be getting rubbed by something when going over a jump, so she doesn't want to do it anymore.

Oh! That's a really good point because it has been a little bit since that has been done...it's suppose to warm up a tiny bit tomorrow (it's snowing at the moment), I'll do it if the weather is good enough...

[Country Girl 43]

I sure hope you can figure it out. Keeping good thoughts out for you. :)

Let us know what the vet says.

[Peggy Sue]

jsut use your fingers to clean them the best you can
baby wipes work well too ...

[~*Domino*~]

Sure hope you can get this figured out and it is nothing serious! Your a great horsey mom for noticing that she is just not being herself!

[cloedoll]

Thanks guys. :) Vet should be here at 10AM, dentist will be here a little later. It's 8:45AM so not too much longer. xD

[Peggy Sue]

cloe be sure to have a blood or urine sample taken... blood is NORMALLY better but urine does help too.. I don't think they aer too expensive I know the last time I had a full panel done it was only about $150 but I also know this varies greatly according to the area you are in... might have a fecal ready for him to take back with him as well it was like $10 for me gives you a good idea on how well your DEworming program is working...

[cloedoll]

Not too exciting of news but I mentioned everything to him and he said a lot of mares (or at least the ones he sees) cock their legs like how I'm describing before their heat cycle because they're uncomfortable (he explained it more scientifically of course lol) and he would be surprised if that wasn't it. So he wants me to give it a bit of time and see what happens, obviously if these issues continue, we'll do some tests and what not but he is pretty confident it is her cycle. Her teeth were in BAD shape, real sharp I guess so we might have to make it six months vs. a year....I have some pictures from yesterday and today (nothing exciting) so I'm going to go post those...that's it really! Lol. xD

eta: no blood/urine samples because my vet really really feels it is her cycle (I mentioned refusing of jumps, too...everything) and doesn't want to do that just yet, so yeah, I'll be giving it a few weeks. :)

[HeartofSteel]

Glad to hear nothing seriously wrong with Miss Cloe! That's to bad about her teeth though but at least she got them done and i'm sure she'll be much happier now. Mia was a crank puss when she was in heat, she didn't even want my legs touching her sides when I rode her. It was really odd though because I never once noticed her in heat for 2 years and then the first one in spring one year was HORRIBLE!

[FredRock]

If her teeth were bad, that might lead to problems with refusing jumps. While I don't know how jumping works as far as riding, I would assume there's a decent amount of pressure on the bit. Something might have been different with the bit in jumping and she could have been uncomfortable.

[cloedoll]

Alissa -- Me too! That sounds like Cloe kind of, the first year I had Cloe she went into heat a lot, last year she didn't go into heat once and I remember she was a BEEATCH (sorry if that's a "bad word" hehe) when she did go into heat...so maybe that really is all that is going on. I'm sure her teeth weren't making it any better either. Thanks for checkin' in! :)

FredRock -- I completley agree with you, it would not surprise me at all if that was what was going on.

Overall it was a good visit and the dentist and vet kept commenting on how healthy Cloe looked. :)

[Gypsy Rose]

Glad there's nothing seriously wrong wih Miss Cloe! Teeth could have been causing a lot of it, and add a strong heat cycle to the mix, and like was already stated, not a good scenario for a sweet and mellow pony!

[Peggy Sue]

Glad to hear it is HOPEFULLY just that first STRONG heat of the year!!!

[cloedoll]

not a good scenario for a sweet and mellow pony!

Hehe, oh, how I wish. :p Jk, I'd be bored if Cloe was mellow! :D

Thanks for checking in guys! :) I sure hope that is just it and I really trust my vet, so I'm not doubting that he is right. xD

[cloedoll]

Forgot to mention another thing she has been doing and if it's indeed her cycle, makes SO much sense. She has been AWFULLY crabby (even threatening to kick...of course I let her know that wasn't okay lol) when I am near her behind...normally she could care less but nope, not lately...this picture explains it much better, though. ;)

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/cloedoll/cloe8-1.png

[Suzi]

Oh the joys of a mare !!!! I love the photo. We ALL know what that look means. Missy the new girl I am riding is all mare too. Some days she's quiet but others she doen't like her belly touched or will squeel (Ican't spell today) abit when you mount and have alot of ear flipping.
But glad to hear the vet is not overly concerned. Cloe is our darling and we all want her to be well.

[cloedoll]

Ah but we love mares so much! :D That's funny about Missy lol...I just hope all of Cloe's cycles aren't like this...might have to try raspberry leaves or something if they are. :doh:

Cloe is our darling and we all want her to be well.

Aww, thanks. She doesn't even know how many people care about her haha

[cloedoll]

OH, also forgot to mention that he listened to her lungs and she's back on the antihistamine for the summer. We do this every year, Spring through Fall but yeah, thought I'd share...maybe if her breathing wasn't the best it made it harder for her to jump (since, as WBay mentioned, it is more athletic)? I think I'll start soaking her hay again as well when it warms up...and stays that way lol.

[WashingtonBay]

So what did we learn? That he thinks she's fine, just hormonal?

Was he interested in soundness issues at all? Did he actually see her moving, or did you get the impression he'd be good for that? How's your farrier/trimmer? Good?

[cloedoll]

Yes, he thinks she is fine but hormonal. What do ya mean by interested? He said if she continues this then definitely call him back and we will do tests but based on what I was saying, him knowing Cloe pretty well and the time of year, he is pretty confident it is hormones...of course he can't be 100% sure but like I said, he said give it a couple/few weeks and call him back and we can go from there. Farrier is good, yes. He has kept Cloe sound since I have owned her and I've never had an issue with him, neither has Cloe lol. I never really thought it was lameness (not that I am totally throwing that out the window) because her movement doesn't seem off to me, she isn't favoring any legs, doesn't look to be in pain on lunge/under saddle...it was just that foot cocking thing...of course, it could not be hormones and there is something going on but right now, I'm giving it a few weeks. :)

[WashingtonBay]

By interested, I mean did he explore the question and actually watch her move or attempt any jumps.

Keep us posted on how she does. If she's still refusing jumps when your farrier comes around next time maybe see if he wants to watch her and see if he sees anything.

[cloedoll]

No I couldn't jump or work her at all because the ground is SUPER soft here from all the rain and it was raining when he was here. :( I really like my vet though and you guys know I baby Cloe so if she doesn't go into heat soon and/or is continuing this odd behavior, I'll definitely be having him out again within the next few weeks and go from there. The farrier will be out April 29, if she is still acting weird, I can have him do that.

[WashingtonBay]

Fair enough :)

[cloedoll]

Ew, the weather is going to be rain, rain and oh yeah, more rain...haha. I love the rain but I hope I get some rides in before the farrier comes...I'll be keeping y'all updated. Let's all cross our fingers it is just her cycle...I have a feeling it is but we'll see. :)

[jeezitsjacki]

glad he thinks its only her heat cycle, hopefully she gets out of it soon, we dont want a crabby pony!

[cloedoll]

Hehe, definitely not...thanks for checking back :D

[cloedoll]

So I made a new thread under HGI (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?p=139677#post139677) - Cloe's 100% back. She was galloping around the pasture today, jumped w/ me under saddle and I gave more details on the other thread. So I don't know what was up but yeah, all is well with her...

[Gypsy Rose]

That's great to hear!

[cloedoll]

'Nother update, I jumped Cloe 2' yesterday...she's completely back to her normal self. Dunno what was her deal.

[WashingtonBay]

Both recent updates are very good news! :)

[cloedoll]

Yes, very! :D She didn't refuse once or even doubt it, she was just like weee, haha...so was it her cycle?? Just a 'funk' ?

[WashingtonBay]

The world may never know, till horses decide to talk. :)

We all get a case of the Mondays once in awhile, sometimes when it's not even Monday!

[cloedoll]

Hah, or we learn to talk horse. :D

Well at least she's moved on to "Friday" - thanks for checking in on her and well, worrying about her. :)

[cloedoll]

Argh. I want to scream. I think it is the saddle...possibly. She has been an absolute brat on the flat now but jumping with no issues...I took the saddle off, she was amazing. I was looking at videos from this year, all our good rides are bareback. I don't know what to do...probably give the saddle a few more rides and go from there.

:banghead:

ETA: Forgot to mention, maybe it is the saddle pad...I bought that new NICE sheepskin one and looking through videos, she was decent under saddle (or at least showing improvement) when it was just the square pad BUT she was refusing jumps w/ that saddle pad (or that is when it started). The first ride in the sheepskin pad, she was doing poorly but wasn't refusing the jumps. WTHECK.

[WashingtonBay]

Oh dear.... - I hope it's not that.

[cloedoll]

Me too...me too...I think I might lose my mind if it is. So I don't know what to do next, I'm thinking ride her bareback for two weeks and see if I see an improvement...if I do, ugh...I don't know. Any suggestions? I'm pretty darn upset right now, I don't want it to be the saddle but I have this gut feeling it is...especially because she has been getting cinchy. I think I just got my answer...I just don't want to admit it.

[moka]

I am sorry to hear. But I think riding her bareback for a few weeks might be the answer.
Nefous also got quite cinchy, I bought a nice expensive leather girth a while ago and that is when it started. Now I will go back to the Thurogood girth again. Go figure.

[Gypsy Rose]

Could be the saddle, but you might be on to something with the saddle pads. Like alreday suggested, go back to bareback for a few weeks, then try the thinner pad for a few rides, and see how it goes. If she goes great in it, give up the thick pad. You'd be amazed how much they can affect saddle fit- they take up more room than you think.

[cloedoll]

Well a member on HGS is concerned the saddle might be too long for her back. -sigh- I'll stick to bareback for a bit while I make a decision and figure things out...

[HeartofSteel]

Do you have a picture of her with the saddle on?

[cloedoll]

This is the only decent one I have.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/cloedoll/Horses/Tack/sideshot.png

I put it a bit farther forward, though...I always thought it looked too long. It's a 17", if I ended up finding a saddle that fit and was a 16.5", would it honestly make *that* much of a difference? If not, I'm not even going to bother finding another saddle...

[WashingtonBay]

I dunno cloe... it's no longer than most western saddles on a short backed horse. It's not interfering with her hip or anything. Are you getting any contact soreness when you press on her kidneys after a ride?

[cloedoll]

I did towards the back of the saddle today...not necessarily her kidneys though but still the back.

[WashingtonBay]

You did get a soreness response?

It does place your seat further back on her than say, a dressage saddle would. When you're riding the flat... upright, that is. Jumping, you'd be forward more of the time.

[cloedoll]

Yes, I did. =/
I see what you are saying but when I'm riding I don't just jump or just ride on the flat, I do both...well, I don't jump everyday lol but you know what I mean.

[WashingtonBay]

Oh I know that, but I was wondering if it had to do with where you are placing your center of weight, for more of the time. You can sore a horse in a perfectly well fitting saddle by how you ride it, and wondering if it's possible when you're doing flatwork, if you're riding heavier in your bum, i.e. not putting enough weight in the stirrups, and/or further back than you should.

[cloedoll]

Oh okay, I see what you mean. I dunno...all sounds confusing and I'm not sure how I would figure out if that was the case. I feel like I ride the same every ride, even when jumping but I guess I wouldn't really know..

[HeartofSteel]

Wbay makes a good point. I did a little photoshopping of weight difference between a jumping saddle and a dressage saddle.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m97/Eqstrnchick/cloesaddle.jpg


http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m97/Eqstrnchick/duettlargo.jpg

[WashingtonBay]

On the HGS thread too, you mention a difference based on what pad you use.

Could be the thicker sheepskin one pitches the saddle forward a bit more, which would move your center of weight forward more too. Could be that's what it needs. That with just a flat pad, particularly when she's carrying weight or getting hollow, the saddle is not level any more and is focusing the pressure in the back. Her response to that might be to hollow even more. Can't tell, I'm guessing, but it could be you need a wedge or something to level it.

Take a picture of her with you in it, no pad yet.

[cloedoll]

On the HGS thread too, you mention a difference based on what pad you use.

Sorry I thought I mentioned that here, too.

I can only get pictures of me not on her, nobody likes taking pictures for me lol.

[HeartofSteel]

Could you take pictures with the difference saddle pads you have used, girthed up?

[cloedoll]

Yes I can definitely get those pics for you guys, minus the ones of me in thee saddle.

I just rode her bareback, she was horrible. Go figure. :banghead:

To specify what I mean by "horrible" she didn't refuse any jumps but her head was in the air, constantly kept changing her pace and ugh...I worked on this, all of this, all last summer...worked so hard and she was amazing. I began riding her this year and she was still amazing, remembering everything and then one day she just decides to forget? Gah...it's so ridiculously frustrating and I don't know where to look first, behavioral, the chiropractor, the saddle, her hooves or WHAT. I don't know if I can emotionally handle re-training her this summer...maybe I'm that crappy of a rider? Bleh, sorry, I just need to vent before I lose it.

[WashingtonBay]

It's just the bugs of spring... you'll get it back together, I'm sure of it. :)

[Peggy Sue]

have you palpated her back??

[cloedoll]

Hopefully...I guess I can stick to groundwork for now, that might also help me evaluate if I think she's "off." I just don't know if I should have the chiropractor out, new saddle or what..

[Peggy Sue]

that could be it too WB the Spring Fling they all seem to take LOL

[cloedoll]

have you palpated her back??

I'm slow, what do you mean by palpated..

[Peggy Sue]

take you fingers down both sides of her spine firmly to see if the reacts...

[cloedoll]

Ah, yes, I have done that and got nothing...she could care less.

WBay, i thought I got a pain response yesterday towards the back but I went out later that night and got nothing, I think she might've thought I was a bug or something when she did respond...

[cloedoll]

Im going to go get those pics for you guys right now so ill be back later

[cloedoll]

Nevermind, no pics, I took them but I cannot find the connector for my camera...grrrr.

[WashingtonBay]

Spring bugs :) They're everywhere :)

[cloedoll]

I forgot to mention that her shoulders look WAY uneven. I got a picture but again, it won't be up until I find my camera cord..

[cloedoll]

I got the pictures off of my phone...unfortunately had to girth up w/ the old ugly girth because I left the new one at my neighbors.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/cloedoll/use.png

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/cloedoll/use2.png

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/cloedoll/use3.png

[WashingtonBay]

Do you have the straight side shot without the cushy pad? I'm still interested in whether the cushy pink pad is pitching the saddle, and thus your center of weight, further forward than without.

[cloedoll]

No. :( I have a theory though, there is this stiff part on the saddle pad and I think it might be bugging her..

http://i44.tinypic.com/zkh15c.png

[WashingtonBay]

How stiff is it? What makes you think that? I thought she was better in that pad?

[cloedoll]

She's better over jumps in this pad because she doesn't refuse them lol, on the flat, she's a spazz...it is pretty stiff in my opinion

[WashingtonBay]

Well, I dunno! It's under a part of the saddle that is also stiff, so...

I dunno. :huh:

[cloedoll]

Yeah, I'm not good with explaining but if it were the saddle's panel against her back, at least it would give and mold a little but this stiff part is like cardboard kind of..there's no give or molding..