Teaching a horse to balance and collect at the lope?

[Dakota Sunrise]

I rode Beauty today and she actually did half decent, but we still had the same problem we always do. We just can't seem to get passed it. *sigh*

She is doing much much better at the trot. I finally taught her that she has a jog ("easyyyy trot") and a working trot, so I sit the jog and post the trot. She's also finally starting to realize that she's supposed to trot on the rail and not go veering off whenever she feels like it.:rolleyes: We're also working on trotting circles, which she can do either really well or really poorly, depending on what mood she is in.
But the problem that remains and isn't improving any is her lope. She cannot seem to balance at the lope to save her life. Part of it is that she hardly ever pics up the right lead so we have to start and stop a lot, which she isn't that great at. She can do a trot to walk transition very well but isn't so hot at the lope to trot. So that isn't helping anything.
I tried just asking her to lope the straights and trot the corners but my arena is really too short for that since she gets excited every time I ask her to lope. Then instead of slowing to a trot around the corners like I ask her too, she speeds up, usually tripping along the way. She is not balanced or collected at all. She seems to think she can lope a small (like the kind I do with her at a jog to work on bending) circle, and she tries to frequently until I get it through her head that we're trotting, and after that she settles down. Her lope is fast and rough and I think that is mainly because she's not balanced, which may be because she's on the wrong lead. But she never pics up the right one and- Grrrr. You get the point.
At the rate we're going the only speed event we'll ever be able to do is Down and Back,:rolleyes: because there is next to no skill involved in it- just speed. And that she has. (I haven't been doing any patterns with her at all lately, and don't plan to until she can lope correctly, just FYI.)

When I have her out on the trail--as long as she's with another horse--she can actually lope like a normal horse. I had her loping side by side with Shadow (my neighbor's horse) a few times and she felt so much more collected and didn't trip or lose her balance. She can also run like a cheetah (I think they're the fastest land mamal in the world, so you get what I'm trying to say:innocent:) when she's out there, but in the arena she can't do it to save her life. Of course in the arena she's forced to lope in a sort of circular pattern, because my whole arena is shaped like one big zero, so there really isn't any straight shots.
I honestly don't think it's because she's burnt out on the arena (we do all kinds of different stuff, and she gets ridden on the trails about twice a week), it's because she can't seem to collect when she has to lope for short distances and around turns.
She also will not flex. I've tried doing the excersise that Harley's Owner described on a different thread, but she just turns in circles and she won't stop and just bend her neck no matter what. She won't do it undersaddle at all, and on the ground she'll only do it once and for a few seconds, and only if I taunt her with a mint.
So... what are your thoughts? I've got my hands full with this one.:innocent:

Oh, and if it matters I have a Full Cheek Snaffle and a Wonder Bit for her and she pretty much acts the same in both.

[JackieB]

She also will not flex....She won't do it undersaddle at all, and on the ground she'll only do it once and for a few seconds....


This is your first step. I can guarantee it, at least according to Clinton Anderson's method, which is how Buster went from being like Beauty, to the beautiful collected lope that he has now.

"Lateral flexion leads to vertical flexion"

Beauty should bend her head and touch her nose to her girth with just about an ounce or two of pressure on the rein from you. Automatically, where she isn't even thinking about it. No resistance whatsoever.

She can absolutely learn how to do it (with patience and time), but let's see if others agree first.

[Harleys Owner]

Wellllllllll, JMO, from the things you have said, I think you are asking for the lope and run before she is ready.

You really need to get her flexing at the stand still before you ask for any loping or running. It really does help, to get them collected, and to get them to pay attention to you, and to rate down when you need them too. I know, believe me, teaching them the flexing can get very frustrating, boring and tedious, but that's what she needs, and she can learn it. She doesn't need to lope at all, pattern or other wise till you have her working well at the flexing, walk and trot.

Since I know you probably will go ahead and lope anyway, change up you gaits very very frequently....IOW's, don't go very far at all at the same pace.

trot, walk, lope, whoa, back, walk, trot, whoa, back lope....only go a very short distance in each gait.

[Harleys Owner]

Jacki, I agree 110%

[Dakota Sunrise]

Wellllllllll, JMO, from the things you have said, I think you are asking for the lope and run before she is ready.

I haven't tried to run her in the arena in months, I figured our pretty quick that it didn't work. I only run her out on the trail, and it's just for fun. Sometimes we just need to let loose and feel free and not worry about form and technique or anything else.

You really need to get her flexing at the stand still before you ask for any loping or running. It really does help, to get them collected, and to get them to pay attention to you, and to rate down when you need them too. I know, believe me, teaching them the flexing can get very frustrating, boring and tedious, but that's what she needs, and she can learn it. She doesn't need to lope at all, pattern or other wise till you have her working well at the flexing, walk and trot.

I get that... but how do I teach her to flex when she just fights me? She's bigger than me, if she really doesn't want to bend her head around then she won't. She just spins circles or backs up, and I'm not sure how to get her to stop doing that. You and Jackie must know how to train them to flex because you do it with your horses... explain please? :)

Since I know you probably will go ahead and lope anyway, change up you gaits very very frequently....IOW's, don't go very far at all at the same pace.

Um.. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to take that? It's kind of an unfair assumption. I actually haven't loped her in the arena for a few weeks because she was just getting out of hand, but now she is doing much better about trotting on the rail, so I thought it was time to go back to loping. But that is easier said then done, and she pretty much needs retrained on how to lope.
I don't mean to sound rude, I just don't want you to think that I just get on her and start running around because it's fun. I school her all the time. Whenever we're in the arena we're training.

trot, walk, lope, whoa, back, walk, trot, whoa, back lope....only go a very short distance in each gait.

I'll try that.:) thanks.:)

[luv2show]

Jackie and Harleys, I agree with you 100%.
I wouldn't be riding a horse that didn't know how to flex. You need to get it perfect on the ground first before you try it undersaddle. Here's a good website for you to look at on teaching them to flex on the ground.

http://www.myhorse.com/training/western/flex_for_control.aspx#top

Let us know how that goes, goodluck! :)

[moka]

It can take some time to do the flexing but she definitely is able to do it. She just doesn't know what you are asking. Try to do it from the ground. Put the lead rope on her back and with the other hand pull towards the back - straight back pull a little bit and then just hold to have some pressure till she gives just a little. Let go completely of the rope and praise her. Do it again. She will figure out that if she gives to pressure the pressure will be released. After some time she will give a little further and further. As soon as she gives - release. You do not have to pull her head around. Just hold the pressure and let go as soon as she moves a little. She will do more and more and when she almost touches her "belly" you just hold till she will touch it on her own.
Some horses will do it in no time others it takes quite a while.

Or just look at the web page luv2show give you.:)

[FredRock]

Okay, I'll give you a strech my chiro gave me for my horses. You take a mint/treat and get her attention with it. Slowly ask her to move her neck to the side, and stop when she get her head to her shoulder. Count to three, give her the treat, and get her neck straightened out again. The second stretch has her go further, out to about the midsection of her body, and hold for three seconds. Once again you straighten before doing anything else.

If you have a stall/shed you can use to do the stretches, get her butt in a corner so it's harder for her to swing and get the treat; she'll have to move her neck. I believe I was told to do those once per side, and then let it be. The stretch helps to get kinks out of the neck, and will help loosen muscles. If you feed her grain I would put it in a container on the ground too.

I'd take her back to basics on cantering. Don't canter, trot. Get the trot light, supple, collected, and then you will have a better canter. Trot poles/ground poles will help, I have some set up so I can walk over one, stop, and then make her trot over the next so that she has to lift up and use her backend. On the lunge line you could also lay some ground poles, they'll help to develop her topline which is probably weak, hence a less than perfect canter. If you know how to bit her up, then doing that would be good too, as she'll kind-of be forced to use her body and you won't have to be hanging on through it all. (That's what I'm doing with Cheyenne anyways, she can't really canter well undersaddle yet either, she'd be better if I could get a week's worth of training in all of the time.)

[Palogal]

I do lots of figures to help with balance. for dressage, at least beyond the 1st level there are 15m canter circles, serpentines etc required. So I start working those smaller figures at the trot and by the time those are good and the canter piece is added, it's pretty good.

[Harleys Owner]

Letting her lope out on the trail any-whicha-way she chooses is as bad as the same in the arena.

She shouldn't lope at all anywhere till she flexes. Sorry, that's JMO. And I didn't mean to sound harsh. It's just that you're always talking about your "need for speed" :)

Teaching her from the ground helps...but it can be done from the saddle too. I did it first from the saddle with Harley.

Explaining it is hard, but I'll try.

To start, don't ask or expect her to come all the way to your stirrup. Make sure she knows the voice command whoa. Then when you start, and I'm speaking doing it from the saddle. Bump the rein, saying whoa at the same time. As soon as you see/feel that she gives her nose even the slightest without moving stop the bumping, give her pat, let her think a second about what happened. Then bump the rein again and give stop each time she responds properly, if she starts to turn, let off, say whoa firmly and immediately upon her stopping to move bump the rein again, no pats, no stopping and thinking. When she starts giving even a little bit with the bumps, then slowly give light pressure on one rein and ask for more and more flex. Work on both directions equally. Don't ask for more flex until she is being consistent with each step. Use you legs also to block her from circling.

It's really just a feel for how the horse responds. Harley I bumped rather then constant pressure at the first. Rocky required constant pressure even at the start. He was a lot stiffer, and harder mouthed when I started with him then Harley, so it required a bit more pressure to get him to understand. But both of them once they got it require only a tiny bit of pressure on one rein or the other to get them to come around to my stirrup.

The key is letting off the pressure as soon as they respond, the degree to which they will flex comes with time. I always ask for them to flex everytime I mount before moving off, as after every time I whoa them.

[Harleys Owner]

Here's a picture from the ground, what your looking for him to do.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=124&pictureid=2054

Here's from the saddle:

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=124&pictureid=1872

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=124&pictureid=1871

[JackieB]

You're going to get a lot of advice, and all is probably good, but you know how hard it can be to follow directions from a bunch of different people. Let me recommend that you try exactly what Moka suggested. Take some video and post it and we'll help.

Don't think turning her head all the way back, or even "turning" at all at the very first. Pull with steady pressure. Not tug, tug, tug - just steady and just enough so that Beauty is slightly uncomfortable with the pressure and looking for it to release.

Beauty might tug, step around a bit in a circle, stand still, whatever. Just be patient and focus on her nose. At some point, she will tip her nose toward you as one of the things she tries to get the pressure off. Every horse does - she will do it, but you have to be ready to see it.

When Beauty tips that nose, release all pressure instantly, stoke her neck, and help her understand that she just won the Nobel Prize for Horse Neck Bending.

Next time, a little more bend, and so on until she is bending all the way back to her girth. Take days or weeks to perfect this exercise, do it in small increments so that she doesn't get bored, and be patient yourself. She will learn.

[JackieB]

If you have a rope halter, it's excellent for the ground flexing exercises.

[Dakota Sunrise]

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. I'll try them out and see what works best for her.:) And I'll keep you posted on her progress and try to get it on video so you all can tell me what I'm doing wrong! :D lol

Letting her lope out on the trail any-whicha-way she chooses is as bad as the same in the arena.

She shouldn't lope at all anywhere till she flexes. Sorry, that's JMO. And I didn't mean to sound harsh. It's just that you're always talking about your "need for speed"

I see your point.. and I don't intend to lope her again in the arena until we can get this flexing thing down. But I can't promise that I won't lope or run her out on the trails. If we never just let loose and GO I think Beauty and I will both lose our minds (do you want to see this happen to us?! -----> :crazy: lol!) She can be very frustrating, but her sweetness in the pasture and her speed when I let her run makes up for it. She may not be learning a whole lot (except that "SHHHH!" means go faster- she got that down pretty quick.:D...:innocent:) when we're galloping, but I don't think it hurts anything or sets us back. She pretty much knows that we play on the trails and work in the arena. I know most of you won't agree with that... but... well... don't hate me.:o :innocent: lol, jk.;)

On a different note, thanks for the pics. That helps for me to visualize what I need her to do.:) How far should I be asking her to go at first before I release the pressure? I know she won't bend all the way around at first.. we'll have to build up to that. So where is a good stop point for us to try to reach?

JackieB: She does have a rope halter- a pink one of course.:D

[JackieB]

How far should I be asking her to go at first before I release the pressure?

At the very first, just an inch or two. Anything, as long as it's a "give". You have to watch closely at first, because she won't give you much. She won't even know that she gave you anything at all. She'll just be trying things to remove the slight extra pressure and one of them will eventually be turning toward the pressure. But if you don't see it, and release that instant, it will take longer for her to figure out that this is what brings the release. Don't worry if you goof up once in awhile, but focus all of your attention on her nose and watch for a "give" in your direction.

A pink halter is fine for Beauty. You'd be sued if you used it on Dakota, but you might be able to get the case tossed out of court for "Legitimate Training Purposes". Of course, you'd have to search the country far and wide to find an attorney who could match wits with the great JackieB, esq., but there might be one somewhere.

And do try to get videos. We can help and don't worry, you can do this for sure. It's not that hard, but you have to develop the ability to see the give on the part of the horse, and then release quickly.

[Dakota Sunrise]

At the very first, just an inch or two. Anything, as long as it's a "give". You have to watch closely at first, because she won't give you much. She won't even know that she gave you anything at all. She'll just be trying things to remove the slight extra pressure and one of them will eventually be turning toward the pressure. But if you don't see it, and release that instant, it will take longer for her to figure out that this is what brings the release. Don't worry if you goof up once in awhile, but focus all of your attention on her nose and watch for a "give" in your direction.

Thanks! That gives me a very good idea of what I need to do.:)

A pink halter is fine for Beauty. You'd be sued if you used it on Dakota, but you might be able to get the case tossed out of court for "Legitimate Training Purposes". Of course, you'd have to search the country far and wide to find an attorney who could match wits with the great JackieB, esq., but there might be one somewhere.

Aw, come on, Jackie! Do you really think I would try to sneak one past you?;) When have I ever done anything unmanly to poor Dakota? ....wait.....don't answer that.:innocent:
But do not fear! I have a black/gray rope halter for him, and his regular halter is red. Very studly.:cool:

And do try to get videos. We can help and don't worry, you can do this for sure. It's not that hard, but you have to develop the ability to see the give on the part of the horse, and then release quickly.

ok, I will get vids.:) And I know it's not that hard.. it sounds downright easy in fact. Except this is the horse that loves to brace against you and pull the oposit way when she doesn't want to go where your telling her to. She is amazingly talented at it.:rolleyes: But we'll work through it one way or another I'm sure.

[JackieB]

Aw, come on, Jackie! Do you really think I would try to sneak one past you?;)

ok, I will get vids.:) And I know it's not that hard.. it sounds downright easy in fact. Except this is the horse that loves to brace against you and pull the oposit way when she doesn't want to go where your telling her to. She is amazingly talented at it.:rolleyes: But we'll work through it one way or another I'm sure.

Well, I just have to stay on my guard all the time with forumers like you, cloedoll, luv2show, and so on. :)

You're right that it's not hard at all, but I don't doubt that she will make you work for it, either. She hasn't done this before and she won't know what you want at first. Your patience will absolutely win out in the long run, though. Just ask for only the tiniest "give" at first, watch closely for it and reward her with complete slack the instant she does, and it will get easier pretty quickly. One inch a few times, two inches a few times, maybe that's enough for the first day. Two inches the next day, maybe we can get six inches now that we know what Dakota is asking of Beauty... Once she gives all the way to her girth, then you can refine, refine, refine. Do those flexing exercises every single day a little bit.

I heard Clinton say that the horse doesn't learn from the pressure, it learns from the release. So, the release is critically important. It must be instantaneous and complete so that no pressure is left on the rope. That's her reward for doing as you ask.

[Harleys Owner]

She may not be learning a whole lot (except that "SHHHH!" means go faster- she got that down pretty quick....) when we're galloping, but I don't think it hurts anything or sets us back. She pretty much knows that we play on the trails and work in the arena.

Once again, I'm not trying to be harsh, just trying to analyze this from the horses prospective.

1. The horse won't "lose her mind" if she isn't loped or run for while. Really, :) granted you might:) but she won't.

2. You are correct that she isn't learning anything but speed, and as you pointed out, it doesn't take them long to learn that. Which is exactly why they should learn control first. The speed will come easy.

3. IMO, is does cause set backs, as you are experiencing. When you are out on trail you can/should "work" the horse exactly as you do in an arena. Horses have all the time they spend in the pasture to "play". Once the halter goes on it is work time for them, never play time, IMO. I know a lot of people think that sounds harsh, and mean to the horse, but IMO, if you play with a horse during the time you are using them, they won't have proper respect for you as their leader, which will cause control problems. And also IMO, horses cannot differentiate between "playing on trail" and "working in the arena". You may get the horse to work in the arena, but it will always be a struggle, as your horse is showing you, if at other times when you are riding you play. No matter when they are being ridden or handled it is work time for them. Now, not every ride has to be a "training" session, but rather in the arena or on trail, for them, it is still job time and the same behavior should be expected for both.

[HeartofSteel]

Balance and collection come with strength so it will take alot of work on both your parts. Flexing is really good as the others have mentioned, I use it everyday. One rein stops also can work really well, especially if you have a horse that likes to go fast. I will use this even at the walk as well as trot and canter. It helps to teach the horse that when you pick up on one rein that they need to stop/slow down. Start with the flexing on the ground and under saddle as the others have said then move onto one-rein stops.

[HeartofSteel]

I am going to explain the One Rein Stop in the post. Alot of this information is from Clinton Anderson.
The one rein stop exercise serves as your "emergency brake". If you teach your horse to immegiately stop and soften every time you pick up on one rein, you have a better chance of controlling your horse if it was to spook suddenly or take off. It also teached them to be responsible for maintaining the exact speed you ask for. Pulling back on both reins allows the horse to brace his neck against the pressure.

Steps-
1. Release all pressure on the reins. Ask your horse to walk forward for 15-20 feet. (do not steer)
2. Slide your hand down one rein and gently pull it towards your hip. (same concept in flexing under saddle)
Keep your other hand in the middle of the reins.
3, Wait until the horse completely stops its feet and gives to the pressure. When the horse does this, immediately release the rein.
4. Repeat the exercise, alternating which rein you use for stopping. Continue this until the horse maintains a consistent, even walk without slowing down or speeding up.
5. When the horse understands this at the walk, do it at the trot and eventually the canter. Don't ask the horse to move into a faster gait until they have mastered the slower ones.
When you do go onto the canter do no more than five strides before you do a one-rein stop. Don't give the horse a chance to go fast.