Cawl has lost a lot of weight

[ownedby7horses]

Hey guys. Cawl has been losing weight lately. I have increased his beet pulp to 2x a day, my boss went out yesterday and bought him a bag of minerals (nice of him, I was going to do that today, but he beat me too it). He gets access to a round bale all day, oats, beet pulp, and molasses at night, and beet pulp now in the morning too.

He eats fine, but he's just getting thin. He's not anorexic (sp?) looking but he's lost some weight & I want to nip it in the butt before the cold sets in. Is there something I might be missing in his diet? Any suggestions for seniors who aren't really "easy keepers"? Any help? I want this guy to be comfortable. He's happy as a lark, comes running in from the pasture when I show up with his bucket of beet pulp, but he needs to put on some weight.

Here's the link to the photos of him. Please offer up suggestions.
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/album.php?albumid=170

Oh yah, his teeth are alright. I looked into that too. He's just not a real easy keeper.

[Turn and Burn]

Is he up to date on worming?

[Turn and Burn]

Well from the pics, and once he is 30 it looks like he is just starting to show the age. I have noticed with my hard keeper is a blanket in the winter will help some, they don't have to work so hard to keep warm.

[ownedby7horses]

Thanks for the info. Yah, he's utd on worming & vacc's. I just worry about him because if he's already losing weight, and it's only Oct....he's got a long ways to go yet in a Canadian winter before it warms up again.

What about sweating with a blanket?

[Gypsy Rose]

A senior horse's digestive system doesn't work as well as when he was younger. A good probiotic will help your horse replenish the friendly gut bacteria that seems to decline with age.

This will help your horse digest his feed better, which in turn will help with weight gain.

What mineral supplement are you feeding him? Does it have vitamins in it as well?

[Ryle]

But what do you consider UTD on deworming? What products are you using and how often? What kind of situation is he in? (Weather extremes for the year, pasture/dry lot/stall, with other horses, feces picked up every 2-3 days, etc) The commonly recommended deworming program really isn't a good one anymore due to parasites becoming resistant to the drugs...so even if you give him something regularly you may not be doing much to get rid of parasites.

Feeding----I would choose a complete senior feed and give it according to the label as the main component of his diet. This will help ensure digestibility and balance of the nutrient profile. Without special processing, feedstuffs may not be well-digested by these old guys. A probiotic may also help.
Additional calories can also be supplied in the form of fat--more easily digestible and calorie dense. 1-2 cups of oil per day can supply a significant amount of calories for energy and weight gain.

Blanketing during cold weather can also be very helpful as these guys tend to be a little more sensitive to cold--just like older people.

Loss of muscle mass is associated with aging but may increase due to metabolic conditions like Insulin Resistance and Cushings which are more common in horses over the age of 15 years.

[Turn and Burn]

If you have a warm day, just take it off. I know in my winters I usually don't have to worry about sweating till it gets closer to spring.
I also agree with what Cindy said about worming. I stay on this schedule of switching wormers that I found at horse.com.

January/February - 1 tube Oxibendazol or Fenbendazole (Our choice: Anthelcide EQ or Safe-Guard)

March/April - 1 tube Generic 1.87% Ivermectin past

May/June - 1 tube Generic Pyrantel Pamoate

July/August - 1 tube Oxibendazol or Fenbendazole (Our choice: Anthelcide EQ or Safe-Guard)

September/October - 1 tube Generic Purchase 1.87% Ivermectin paste

November/December - 1 tube Generic purchase Pyrantel Pamoate

They also have the cheapest wormers around and they have Standard 1-Year (6-tube) Rotational Packs
too!:D

[walkinthewalk]

All good advice.

The oil is healthy fat and warmth. Many folks use corn oil, I prefer Canola oil because it is higher in Omega-3.

There a lot of good probiotic's on the market, but the probiotic I use is from designnutrition-equine in Minnesota. It is not expensive for a tub. It is "metabolic support with probiotic".

This lady was one of the three nutritionists that was instrumental in helping me get Duke on track with his EMS in May, 2007. She also runs a horse rescue and her husband either is or has retired from being a human nutritionist. Point-being, she has all the knowledge and understanding to put out a product.

I don't think we can give product links and I may get taken to the Woodshed for this, but her number is 1-866-456-2438, or you can Google "designnutrition-equine".

If you mentioned how Cawl's teeth are, I missed it. Have they been checked recently? If he is the age you suspect, things could start happening in his mouth "five minutes after he's been examined" :(

The blanket is a sticky wicket since you can't monitor him 24 hours/day. If need be, would the BO be able to assist you if you decide to blanket Cawl? I understand the hot/cold thing and those days when the weather would be finicky, would present a problem for you in being able to put the blanket on, take it off, put it back on:(

Is he stalled at night? I may have missed that point too. If not, putting him up at least for the night would help a lot, if there's a stall available. I don't know how the barn is set up, but if the aisleway is wide and completely clear of "things", he could even be let loose in the alleyway for the night. I know a couple people that do that because they are short on stall space.

I'm just thinking out loud and maybe none of my thoughts will work but Cawl sounds like a wonderful fella and, as you've said, he paid his dues long ago and deserves the best you are trying to provide for him:cowboy:

[ownedby7horses]

What mineral supplement are you feeding him? Does it have vitamins in it as well?

Im not too sure which one it is yet. I'll have to look when I go out to the barn tomorrow. He just picked it up last night & told me about it today.


But what do you consider UTD on deworming? What products are you using and how often? What kind of situation is he in? (Weather extremes for the year, pasture/dry lot/stall, with other horses, feces picked up every 2-3 days, etc)


He was wormed about 2-3 months ago (this is all going from what I have been told. I only got him near the end of Aug.)
My horses generally get wormed 3x a year (unless they need more which has happened before). I rotate their dewormers and never use the same one back to back.
He is in a pasture with 5 other horses & 2 foals. If it gets nasty out, he goes into the barn.

You know, I think I will worm him again. It's certainly not going to hurt him, and then I know it's been done. As I was reading my reply I was thinking that atleast this way I'll know forsure instead of going by what someone says.

If you have a warm day, just take it off. I know in my winters I usually don't have to worry about sweating till it gets closer to spring.
I also agree with what Cindy said about worming. I stay on this schedule of switching wormers that I found at horse.com.

I would like to blanket him, but the guy who's place he stays at doesn't like blankets. For one, his horses like to chew on them, for 2 because he's an old cowboy who doesn't blanket horses! lol
Here's my next question....how do you know how heavy of a blanket to get? We get some nasty cold days in the winter time. Temps are commonly around -20 to -35 Celcius.

Thanks guys for the knowledge. I just really really really want him to be comfortable & happy.

[Equine_Woman]

We worm on a 6 week rotation. My horses are on dry lots so they are pretty exposed. But my seniors especially need to be wormed more often.

Hopefully you can explain to the guy that he needs a blanket and then spray that bitter apple on it, stops the others from chewing on it.

Good luck. I'm working on getting some weight on two of mine as well.

[ownedby7horses]

All good advice.

The oil is healthy fat and warmth. Many folks use corn oil, I prefer Canola oil because it is higher in Omega-3.

There a lot of good probiotic's on the market, but the probiotic I use is from designnutrition-equine in Minnesota. It is not expensive for a tub. It is "metabolic support with probiotic".

This lady was one of the three nutritionists that was instrumental in helping me get Duke on track with his EMS in May, 2007. She also runs a horse rescue and her husband either is or has retired from being a human nutritionist. Point-being, she has all the knowledge and understanding to put out a product.

I don't think we can give product links and I may get taken to the Woodshed for this, but her number is 1-866-456-2438, or you can Google "designnutrition-equine".

If you mentioned how Cawl's teeth are, I missed it. Have they been checked recently? If he is the age you suspect, things could start happening in his mouth "five minutes after he's been examined" :(

The blanket is a sticky wicket since you can't monitor him 24 hours/day. If need be, would the BO be able to assist you if you decide to blanket Cawl? I understand the hot/cold thing and those days when the weather would be finicky, would present a problem for you in being able to put the blanket on, take it off, put it back on:(

Is he stalled at night? I may have missed that point too. If not, putting him up at least for the night would help a lot, if there's a stall available. I don't know how the barn is set up, but if the aisleway is wide and completely clear of "things", he could even be let loose in the alleyway for the night. I know a couple people that do that because they are short on stall space.

I'm just thinking out loud and maybe none of my thoughts will work but Cawl sounds like a wonderful fella and, as you've said, he paid his dues long ago and deserves the best you are trying to provide for him:cowboy:

aww, thanks! Who couldn't love this face?
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=170&pictureid=2024
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=170&pictureid=2027
He might be able to be stalled at night. The owner of the place doesn't even live there. He just goes out 2x a day to feed, check on things, make sure the auto waterer is working, etc. So blanketing is going to be a tricky deal. That's why my boss (who I got the horse from) doesn't want to see me blanket him. I could take the blanket off in the AM though when I go do my chores & get the bo to put it back on at night (if he'd go for that....he's a crusty old cowboy, lol)
Cawl had his teeth done in the spring. I do realize he's at that age where it might need to have something done with it again. I'll have to talk to Brad, he said that the vet didn't want to take too much off last time because of something, I can't remember. I'll have to find out again. I will definately be putting him on oil. I can't see that it would hurt anything, it will just help. Plus it'll keep him regular! :poo:
All this advice has been wonderful! Cawl thanks you all & so do I! I'll keep posting pics to better monitor his weight! He's a trooper & he's managed to win over my whole heart in just a couple short months!

[Turn and Burn]

Here's my next question....how do you know how heavy of a blanket to get? We get some nasty cold days in the winter time. Temps are commonly around -20 to -35 Celcius.

Thanks guys for the knowledge. I just really really really want him to be comfortable & happy.[/quote]


Well, if you do decide to blanket him to answer your question of how heavy, the warmest is Heavy-Weight Warmth and the toughest outside shell would be 1200 Denier.
Good Luck!! I hope you get something figured out, keep us updated:)

[KCandAllegro'sMom]

Here's my next question....how do you know how heavy of a blanket to get? We get some nasty cold days in the winter time. Temps are commonly around -20 to -35 Celcius.

Thanks guys for the knowledge. I just really really really want him to be comfortable & happy.

My horses all have blankets in differing weight so I can rotate them based on the weather. I make sure to buy waterproof and each have a sheet, mid-weight and heavy-weight blanket.

That way I can layer or whatever based on the weather.

[walkinthewalk]

What a SWEET face! :innocent:

Cawl looks pretty good, but you're right -- he's not in a position to lose more weight with winter coming.

Being in Canada, your winter is coming on much faster than for many of us in the Lower 48. Cawl's coat looks really good. It is short and thick as opposed to the long shaggy coats that Cushing's horses get.

If he is maintaining that "coat style" come Feb-Mar, that will be a good sign too. It doesn't mean he isn't metabolic, it will just mean that he at least doesn't have full-blown Cushings.

Keep a close eye on his hooves too. Check his hooves each time you visit him to get an understanding of what normal hoof warmth for him is -- and that normalcy seems to vary slightly too --- at least it does with my horses.

Check his soles for concavity and what normal is for him. If he starts to slowly lose his normal concavity, that most likely means his Coffin Bone is rotating slightly because he is becoming slightly laminitic due to I-R/EMS issues.

Horses do not need to be air ferns for these things to happen, even though air ferns are at the top of the list for them.

Regarding his teeth --- whatever gets ground off, never grows back. The horse can develop "points" on their teeth, but the tooth height never comes back once it's taken off. That may be what the vet was referring too.

He/she may feel enough has been ground down already, but close monitoring for loose teeth and abscesses will be important. Unless Cawl is extremely stoic (never complains), his head movements when he eats, plus if he starts losing his food, should help give you signs if something wrong is going on in his mouth.


:clap:You go Cawl! You grande Old Sweetface :clap:

[Ryle]

Unfortunately the deworming program that Turn and Burn listed and that it sounds like several people use is a poor deworming plan. It doesn't take into account that there is significant parasite resistance to the benzimendazoles and specifically fenbendazole which has resistance issues in 90+% of the areas tested world-wide and pyrantel which has resistance issues in 40+% of areas tested. And now there has even been a study showing strongyles starting to develope resistance to ivermectin in Kentucky so it's possible in other areas as well though not widespread at this point. Then add in that you are deworming to quickly after some dewormings and too late after others and it's effectiveness is even worse.

And just randomly deworming isn't the answer either.

Rather than just hi-jack this thread, I'm going to post my long-winded deworming program post as a new thread for everyone who hasn't read it and is still on the old style program which is NOT recommended anymore by the vets who are specifically interested in and involved in parasitology and deworming in horses.

[walkinthewalk]

I do my best thinking when deep-cleaning the stalls on Saturday mornings - lol

It occured to me, that if your barn has electric and Cawl could be stalled at night, buying him a heated water bucket would go a LONG way in keeping him warm, encourage him to drink more water, and be an additional plus in keeping his tummy settled.

All of my horses drank a lot more water last winter when we bought the heated stock tanks for outside and heated buckets for the stalls. And we barely get past the "w" in winter:cowboy:

Assuming the barn has 220 amp service and not an old-style fuse box, you could buy a construction-duty extension cord, long enough to run from the bucket to the nearest plug.

You wouldn't want to be using two extension cords plus the bucket's cord.

I still remember how thick ice could get when I lived on the OH/PA border, so I can only imagine how many feet deep yours gets in the winter.

Point-being, you could also invest in a heavy-duty outdoor timer, and plug the extension cord into that -- setting it to shut off during the warmth of your days, and come back on when it starts to cool down.

Unless Cawl likes to fill his bucket with hay and shavings, you could clean it out with a fish net for fish tanks and only need to refill the bucket "as needed" if he didn't drink it dry everyday.

That will up the electric bill some, but not too much, in case your BO would want you to pay for the extra electric. All the two of you would have to do is either just guesstimate the usage, or look at last year's barn electric bill for the same month and compare the KWH (killowatt) usage.

Looking at dollars spent won't tell anything except the rates have gone up. The KWH usage is what gives the accurate comparison from a year ago:cowboy:

[Ryle]

In extremely cold temperatures, blanketing overnight would be a good idea. That's when it's going to be it's absolute coldest generally. Trying to keep warm can use up lots of calories and these old guys tend to be more susceptible to cold.

More frequent oral exams is also a good idea--senior horses should generally be checked every 6 months. Not necessarily floated but checked for tooth loss, fractures, etc that can cause significant problems with eating.

[ownedby7horses]

Im still leary about the whole blanketing thing. I just don't know if that's the right thing to do for him or not. He's never been blanketed yet & the bossman really really doesn't want me to start if he doesn't absolutely NEED it.

Yesterday morning, I was late getting outta bed, which pushed my whole day back. So, that means I was late with Cawls food (only an hour or so). He was standing in the catch pen when I pulled up to the gate. He walked over to the pasture gate right by where I park my car & stood there until I had pulled into the yard. His ears pricked forward the whole time watching my every move in the car. As soon as I got out & told him I was sorry for being late, he immediately started giving me hell. He talked to me the whole time I was grabbing his food. As I got closer to the gate his talking turned into soft nickers as if to say, "it's ok, I forgive you, but dammit, don't you be late again". He followed right behind me to the round pen nickering all the way. Once he was in there & eating, he took a big mouthful, looked at me, pricked his ears up & I could see his nostrils move to a silent nicker! He had the expression like "oh my god, this is soooo good. thanks!" Just thought I'd share, he's a cutie pie. He's not looking quite as ribby either. I don't know if it's just me or what. I think I'll take my camera out today (if I don't forget) and take some more pics of him.

[Ryle]

What does the boss fear about blanketing?

[ownedby7horses]

He worries about sweating under the blanket. Our days here can change in about .2 seconds flat. It can go from nice & decent outside to blizzarding & freezing cold the next. He just worries that if he's blanketed, he'll either be too hot with it on or too cold without it on if he gets used to wearing it. I dont know if this post makes any sense, but it's hard to explain for me.

Just from knowing that our days can go from great to awful in no time flat, he is just concerned that either the horses body temp will be too high or too low.

[walkinthewalk]

He worries about sweating under the blanket. Our days here can change in about .2 seconds flat. It can go from nice & decent outside to blizzarding & freezing cold the next. He just worries that if he's blanketed, he'll either be too hot with it on or too cold without it on if he gets used to wearing it. I dont know if this post makes any sense, but it's hard to explain for me.

Just from knowing that our days can go from great to awful in no time flat, he is just concerned that either the horses body temp will be too high or too low.

It makes perfect sense. All but the last ten years of my life were on the OH/PA border. We had wild weather fluctuations like that but not to the great degree you do.

If the BO doesn't live on premise or if he holds down a full time job, it would be difficult to accommodate Cawl's blanketing based on the fickle weather.

I am still for shutting him in at night with a heated bucket of water and turing him out during the day.

I would even leave him in during the those days you know (or suspect) there's going to be a lasting, freezing/driving cold rain that would chill Cawl before one of you were able to get to the barn that night.

The winters on OH/PA border don't get near as "bone chilling" cold as yours, but that bone-chilling dampness is precisely why I wanted to retire to Middle Tennessee where the winters are much milder. Point-being I can emphathize with your issues on a lesser scale:)

If all the horses get turned out and Cawl isn't happy being shut in the barn by himself, make another senior horse stay in with him, or a laid-back younger horse.

If any of my horses would have to be locked in due to serious illness (except contagious issues), or even sequestered in one of the smaller pastures, someone else is "going down with them". Like it or not, those are my rules. No one gets left alone and two of them can just commiserate together - lol lol

[Gypsy Rose]

Ownedby7horses: did you find out what mineral supplement it is that you're feeding him yet?

[Remali]

Awww he is a sweet horse! You've already gotten some great advice here....but I just wanted to add that when I had my two senior horses they really put on weight nicely when I fed them a good Senior horse feed, so I would very strongly suggest something like Equine Senior or something equivalent to that, and as much hay as he will eat day and night.

[ownedby7horses]

I am going to talk to the BO about leaving him in at night. Right now the babies are in there to be weaned, but I don't suspect they'll stay there for too much longer. The BO doesn't even want Cawl there over the winter if I can help it. I haven't had any luck finding a place for him, so it looks like he's gonna stay there. I will talk to him again & just see what he has to say this time. He's so hot & cold. One minute he says one thing, the next minute he says another. I will just tell him it's only until spring, then Cawl can come to our farm.

Gyspy, no I haven't been able to get that yet. Boss had to leave and forgot to leave the bag for me (he left in a hurry). Im sure I'll be able to get it tomorrow for him.

Remali, thanks! He is a sweetheart & I love him to death! He'll eat well this winter! He gets beetpulp 2x a day, vit's & min's (as soon as my boss remembers to give me the bag), oats, all the hay he can get into his belly, and Im thinking I will likely put him on a complete feed too. Seems like the thing to do.

I have never really had to deal with a horse this senior before. I just want to absorb all the information I possibley can. This guy has more than earned his keep & I just really want what's best for him.

[WestmanFarrier'sWife]

You may want to double check on the worming idea. I am consistent with my worming rotation, however my horse ended up with encycted worms. She was eating normally, and not being worked hard and she was only 4 at the time. She was losing weight and we couldn't figure out why until we had a fecal done. We had to get a "power pack" dewormer and that took care of the problem!

[ownedby7horses]

Yah, I'm gonna deworm him this week.
Here's some pics from yesterday morning
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=170&pictureid=2379 (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=170&pictureid=2379)

I really like this pic of him. I think Im going to get it printed off & put it in a frame.
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=170&pictureid=2380

[Ryle]

You may want to double check on the worming idea. I am consistent with my worming rotation, however my horse ended up with encycted worms. She was eating normally, and not being worked hard and she was only 4 at the time. She was losing weight and we couldn't figure out why until we had a fecal done. We had to get a "power pack" dewormer and that took care of the problem!

How did your vet diagnose encysted strongyles via a fecal? The deal with encysted strongyles is that they are encysted in an immature life stage inside the wall of the intestinal tract. They do not therefore shed eggs so cannot be diagnosed without a visual exam of the lining of the GI tract.

If you were deworming regularly and still finding a significant amount of strongyle eggs in feces within 2 weeks of deworming then it's likely that you have resistant strongyles. You could have had encysted strongyles as well, but you simply cannot diagnose those via a fecal exam. Something to think about if you are still using the same rotational deworming program.

Also, just my opinon---I am not a big fan of Panacur Powerpac. It has been in use for several years but only recently has there been a study that looked for specific changes in the GI tract caused by it's use. Panacur Powerpac dosing causes severe inflammation about 2 weeks after dosing---may cause signs of colic---and can even cause ulceration in the GI tract. Basically it causes the problem you are trying to prevent, the damage caused by a mass emergence of strongyles from their encysted stage. While moxidectin doesn't kill as many of the encysted stages of strongyles, it does lower their numbers without causing the severe damage to the GI tract. I will not Powerpac my horses.

[ownedby7horses]

I will not Powerpac my horses.

From what you have just described, neither will I.

[Gypsy Rose]

Thank you Ryle, for giving out this info. I have been asked more than once why I have never power pac'd Gypsy. The main reason was cost without proof that she even HAD encysted small strongyles, but there was also a gut feeling telling me it wasn't a wise idea. Now I feel much better about my decision.

[WestmanFarrier'sWife]

Well the vet obviously couldn't know that the worms were encysted, but it was his thought that they were. The powerpac worked wonders! Now have a happy and healthy horse!

[Ryle]

Well the vet obviously couldn't know that the worms were encysted, but it was his thought that they were. The powerpac worked wonders! Now have a happy and healthy horse!

That's reasonable. Just be aware that what may really have been happening was lack of good deworming caused by the parasites being resistant to the products you were using. If that is the case then unless you have changed things since deworming with the Powerpac you may very well still end up with a heavy parasite burden even with deworming regularly.

Unfortunatly until very recently most vets didn't realize how much of a drug-resistant parasite problem there was so the assumption was that owner's just weren't getting enough drug down or the parasites had been encysted and then erupted and matured so that you had egg-shedding adult parasites again in a few weeks time.

[WestmanFarrier'sWife]

Yeah, I appreciate your input! I've been going to a few lectures lately put on by vets concerning this issue. There are so many studies and so much information! All I can conclude is that every horse is different!

[ownedby7horses]

All I can conclude is that every horse is different!

Amen to that!

[Ryle]

All I can conclude is that every horse is different!

That is exactly the point and why each horse and situation should be assessed to determine what deworming program is appropriate to that horse.