Another cantering question

[carla]

Sorry, guys! I know there are cantering threads all the time but the only one I can dig up at the moment is zoel's, and it's a bit different from this one. I'm wondering if I'm right in assuming the answer is the same.

I've been doing a good bit of w/t work with Jack this past week in the arena. (WB, he's getting used to the sand! LOL) Anyway, since he'd been doing well with that, I decided yesterday and today to go for a little cantering.

A little background, I have cantered him once on the trail, just for a short time.. he did fine aside from a very slight hop in the middle somewhere; I figured he was just a bit excited but then he settled into it and after that we slowed up. He has also cantered on the lunge and actually even threw in a "flying lead change".. lol, really he just corrected himself when he was out of whack.. but it was pretty smooth, I thought. :p

So yesterday I asked for a canter in the ring and got a much faster trot.. okay, fine, stayed with him and kept encouraging. Finally, a crow hop and a standstill. Started over and just did a few more minutes of trotting and then went on the trail. We had been working for a while at this point and I wanted a chance to end it on a good note.

Today: w/t work for a while, then worked back up to asking for a canter.. went thru the fast trot stuff again, then a hop.. another hop.. and then a true buck. I turned him in the other direction and went right back to work- maybe one or two more half-hops but no more bucking the rest of the time, but still no canter either. :doh:

So I figure trot trot trot is my answer as well? Will he just magically break into a canter someday when I least expect it, or do I push the issue? I'm totally fine with trotting for now and don't mind having an actual something to work on. Is he just not ready? Why is he such a stinker? (don't answer that) I really would like to get a video sometime, if someone would be kind enough.. hmmm..

On a lighter note, he did do just great with keeping the pep in his step on his new "eeeasy trot" today, and isn't tiring out in the sand NEARLY as quick as he was! I was happy with that part. Not to mention this is totally trimming my inner thighs. I'm sure that's part of his plan for me.. he's just tryin' to help a girl out. :)

And I am having so much fun with him.. I've just never ridden a horse that I couldn't convince to canter, lol!

[ImaBronsonBear]

I'm kinda behind times - does he already know how to canter, or is he green and not yet cantered under saddle?

If it's the first scenario, i'd say he's pulling your leg and i'd get a whip out and MAKE him canter, through the bucks and everything.

If it's the second scenario, i'd got someone to stand in the center of the arena on the ground and back up your cue from the saddle with a lunge whip and a verbal cue to help him connect your cue from the saddle with cantering.

[Spyder]

Don't let him run into the canter. Take more contact and on the first trot run on and bring him back.

Try asking for the canter from a slight shoulder in or slight sharper turn. Again if he runs on bring him back.

I believe the crow hop/buck is him losing his balance from being on the forehand so he "fixes" it.

[carla]

Thanks so much for the reply, Bronson!

Hard to say, though.. I know the previous owner did trails only with him, and from the feel of him he's never been asked for much- if any- collection. I'm sure they "ran" him, but I think it was just a free will kinda thing.. does that make sense at all? I'm not just letting him have his head and run, though I'm not sure there would be much of a difference. Anyways that's why we've been working on his trotting so much, and he's much better there.

I'm thinking like you are, though.. sometimes I want to just "whip" him through the fit, but then I think, if he was so loosey goosey at the trot and just now bringing it in, could it be he's just needing more time? Is he totally playing me? :hysterical:


edit: also, he is relatively young; just turned six. So not like he's "seasoned" or anything I reckon.

[carla]

Thanks, Spyder. I am doing a "turn in" to the canter, but we're never making it to the canter- not one stinkin' stride of it. :doh: But I'm doing just that. Circling half the arena, starting on the straight side and then asking for the canter as we turn off the side.

Wait- I see what you mean; you're saying "run on" as in the fast trot? Hmm.. that's an idea. I've been thinking I'll just let him do that while I "speed up my seat," and see what I get. Maybe I will try this one this coming week..

[luvs2ride1979]

I agree, bring him down to a slower trot, and ask for the canter from there. Just keep bring him back down to a slower/collected trot, then ask again.

Work him on the lunge and get him cantering with a voice cue, then use that cue to reinforce what you're asking for under saddle.

[carla]

Yeah, you're right too luvs2. Guess I'll start back on the ground with this one along with riding. Admittedly, I'm a bit lazy on the groundwork stuff and want to fix stuff in-saddle.. I'll give it a try, though. ;)

[Annie&Dixie]

Great advice already! I'm sure you'll have him cantering soon. I just wanted to add that whenever I have problems with Dixie cantering (which are more often than I'd like), I find that if I lift up her inside shoulder and then try to push her into it, it works out much better. What I do to lift her up is hold my insider hand (and rein) out towards her head with almost a straight line from her bit up her headstall. I only ever use light contact but I keep it steady and will ask her for the canter. Although this might not be what you need, from your description, it doesn't sound like he's shouldering in or dropping his shoulder, but this is what my Dix does.

[carla]

Thanks Annie. :) I'll try all of this. I do like the sound of your idea, but not the thought of leaning too far forward when he's prone to bucking, kwim? It's just frustrating, because I can feel him right on the verge of it.. he's sooo close! As soon as I feel him start getting "in tune" with it, he just falls apart. Bah!

Rain tomorrow.. :doh: But sunny and rain-free all this week it looks like, so HOPEFULLY something will turn up.

Thanks guys! It's so nice to be able to vent and maybe even get some good ideas in return. :)

[Annie&Dixie]

Thanks Annie. :) I'll try all of this. I do like the sound of your idea, but not the thought of leaning too far forward when he's prone to bucking, kwim? It's just frustrating, because I can feel him right on the verge of it.. he's sooo close! As soon as I feel him start getting "in tune" with it, he just falls apart. Bah!

Yeah, I know what you mean. I forgot about the bucking, that would be difficult! Dixie barely ever bucks when I ask her, she's more prone once we're going and decides she doesn't want to move her shoulder over :rolleyes: Luvs idea on the lunge sounds good, maybe also transitions while on the lunge will help? I don't know, just thinking out loud here :)

Good luck with whatever will work!!

ETA - A chiro appointment might not be a bad idea since he is bucking while trying to go into it. But then if he canters well on the lunge then this probably isn't the problem. Again, just thinking out loud :D

[carla]

I hear ya on thinking aloud, lol. That's what I'm doing tonight too. And I'm tired! We rode for a nice while this morning (felt longer with all the trotting ha ha) and then I came home and cut grass! I'm sun-crazy I think. :p

I thought just the same thing at first: is he hurting? But then I thought back to when he cantered on the line and had NO problem with it. Of course, he was showing off for an in-season mare at my friend's farm at the time.. Lord, was he a hot mess that day! And that was Jacques I was dealing with over there and not Jack.. lol!

[Annie&Dixie]

Haha, I hear ya on the sun. I'm burned all over my shoulders and face, I think I've had a bit too much ;)

Dixie will not be happy to hear about his showing off! While she understands that he is a gelding and it's what they do sometimes, she will not tolerate it! She just might have to come down there herself.

:D :D

[Petra]

Carla, I'm not going to try to give you advice, because I have probably the least experience out of anyone on this forum. But I can tell you how I got my horse to canter. He is green, doesn't have the short lope down. But he would canter every time I ask now. I can get Trigger to canter from walk.
He listens to me very well in a front yard. If he can see the stalls though he really wants to go back "home". I walked him away and asked for canter towards the stalls. I know it is not adviced to let horses run home. However it worked for us. We ran towards...never actually went "home" always turned around at the gate and tried again until he had the command down.
I tought Sydney to canter similar way.
It seems to be easier to ask for canter when the horse actually wants to do it.

[BalooEyes]

It sounds like he's fine on the trail? in control, etc? If so, maybe trick him into cantering when you are headed up a hill. Baloo used to do the same thing when got him, he didn't want to put forth the effort to do it and would do the super trot and bucking. But he was great on the trail so when we would go up hill (harder to buck, plus they naturally want to canter up hill) I'd ask for a canter then slowly pull him into a desirable canter as we head up the hill.
Also, going over little cross-rails, they tend to land on the other side in a canter, just keep them going. Another trick I used with Baloo.

Good luck!!

[carla]

Thanks Petra & Baloo!

Yes, he is fine/in control on the trails. I had thought of trying a little there, but there aren't that many good running spots on the parts were usually on. I'll take a closer look tomorrow, though. I had also considered trying the hill in the pasture, but he gets a little goosey in the pasture, or has in the past anyway. I could certainly try it after wearing him down with lots of trotting in the arena, huh? I did ride him back through the pasture to the barn after all the trotting yesterday, and he was GREAT. Far better than when he's fresh. So that may be a good time, better for him keeping his sanity.. ;)

I like the cross-rails idea too.. I'm so excited to get started on all this! I wanted a horse that would have little tweaks to work on, and now with the arena they're starting to show. It's harder to pick up on this stuff out on the trails, you know? :)

[FredRock]

So he's probably pretty green? Does he collect at a walk? At a trot? If he doesn't get on the bit, use his back, and his behind well at the trot you won't get a good canter, and if he's still green you might not get anything. Get him working well in the trot and on the bit, and then ask for a few strides of the canter. Don't go too far at first, ask for a few strides and come down to the trot with a lot of praise and pats. As he keeps improving at the trot, he will slowly improve at the canter.

That's what my mare's program is right now, anyways.

[carla]

Thanks FredRock! Yep, I do think he's green as far as all that. Like I said though, he's much better at the trot than when we started and feels good to me, though I'd really like to get a vid and see what you all think (of both of us, I THINK.. ha! Never thought I'd say that.).

And definitely- I was totally prepared to be thrilled with even three strides of canter! LOL.. I even dreamed last night that he got it and I was SO excited. :rolleyes: I'm such a goob.

[Beausgirl]

Something else to consider - I gather from your comments about him "getting used to the sand", that he has not worked in an arena before? Before you started him? I have an "older" gelding who has just been used for trail riding and never had any formal training on him. He had four buttons, go, go faster, turn, & stop! Over the last couple of years, I have put some "training" time on him and he has been worked in an arena as well. He was the same as your guy in that he will lope in the field - (would actually try to run away with you!) - but in an arena - he was the fastest trotter around!! Part of his issue was the fact that he was in an enclosed space and didn't understand that he "could" lope - you know? Something that we did was - I would have my son on Roo (the "trotter"!!) and I would ride Beau. I would ask Beau to lope in front of Roo, and so when my son cued him to lope, he would because he was following Beau. This was what my coach had me do with Beau, when we initally started to canter. And I have never had cantering(loping!) issues with Beau - so - not sure if the buddy system was responsible at all for that or not. Is there someone at the arena who could help you in that way?

[FredRock]

And definitely- I was totally prepared to be thrilled with even three strides of canter! LOL.. I even dreamed last night that he got it and I was SO excited. :rolleyes: I'm such a goob.

I got two awesome strides on a circle and I was grinning like an idiot for the rest of the day. Heck, I get impulses to canter all of the time when I'm riding Cheyenne. I can't wait until I can actually do it!

[carla]

Beaus- I can't be positive that he's not worked in an arena, but I really don't gather that he has. (Remember, he could TOTALLY be pulling my leg here lol).

I'm also not the one who broke Jack- his previous owner did. I don't know how to put it, but his owner didn't "strike me" as the arena type?? LOL. He was a good ol' boy.. very nice and all.. but like I said didn't strike me as the type to do all the "fussy" stuff.

It is a great idea, though, to have another horse canter in front of him. And I've wondered too if he maybe thinks he doesn't have enough "space". Thanks!

[jeezitsjacki]

I dont know if you have gone over this already, but how do you ask for the canter? What I have been taught to do is just use my outside leg on the horses side along with saying canter. You dont want to use both legs, because to a horse that usually means trot, so when you are squeezing with both legs they will simply trot faster and not get the signal

[carla]

Yep, Jacki, that's what I did. Used the outside leg (and eventually heel, lol) as we went into the turn and kept my inside off of him. Glad I at least got one thing right! :D

[Beausgirl]

Yeah - if you could find a buddy to lope in front of you - that's something I would try anyway. I guess I would be a bit nervous of trying to get a lope out of him at this point in an open field where it's so easy to loose control - especially since he has given to thowing in a buck or two now when you do ask him....Good luck - sounds like you're on the ball anyway - so I'm sure you'll get it worked out!

[Nudge_gurl58]

My pony was like that too. she had never been taught how to canter they just let her 'run' when they wanted to go fast. not the best idea! Anyways what we did which worked for Gypsee was we lounged her in the arena first with lots of canter transition with voice cues, and then I got on and my sister lounged my and we did the same thing, just with me on her back. and then I started adding in the riding aids with someone lounging. and then we went off the lounged and I used the aids and my voice to ask her. She never would stop and buck though she would always just run, so i don't know if it would work for you, but it might be worth trying :) good luck!