"Something" is not right

[AppyLover]

On Thursday I took Abby to the vet to get UTD on her shots for the year. Since she had been sore from our ride a week ago I desided to ask the vet if he could take a look and tell me if she got a stone bruise or if she pulled a muscle in her shoulder (two things that have happened before).

First the vet acted like I was a waste of his time. Had chew in his mouth. And over all treated me like a dead beat horse owner! ME?! He kept saying that she needed x-rays and that if "she was MY horse I'd have her x-rayed. She looks like the perfect case of FOUNDER." :eek: WHAT!!!!?????? Calmly I asked if there was anything I could do now to make her comfortable until tuesday when my farrier (sp) will be out to evaluate her feet? He said Bute.

Both front hooves are sore. Both soles are deffinately bruised. No heat anyware other than normal body heat (from what I can tell). Minor swelling around her cornnet bands, no pain but she is Buted up right now.

I called my farrier and told her what this VET said to me. She proceded to make me feel worse by telling me I should have "booted" her up long ago and that for rides like that she should have had protective boots on because the vet could have been right and that Abby may have "road foundered." (I have never heard of this until last night).

I am sick, in shock, and down right stressed. My farrier is the one that 6 years ago said that Abby was a great canidate for going bare foot and once conditioned would be able to do anything a shod horse can do. For the last 4 years name it we have ridden on it, and now on a 16 mile dirt road she founders??????

Things are not adding up or making sence, I usually have good instincs when it comes to my horse, but right now I am questioning everything I deside for her. I am devisated that I may have hurt her.

Thank you for letting me vent...:(

[Cat]

That does not sound right. Dirt road? Road founder? Um no. Road founder tends to be more likely to happen on black-top/paved road, especially with a lot of trotting on the hard surface. I've seen both shod and unshod horses get it as well.

Now was she sore on the ride at all? was this road unusually rocky? If you are riding barefoot and she has gotten stone bruises frequently in the past, you may want to get boots just to stay on the safe side with her.

However, I don't want to say too much without actually seeing the horse and being able to feel the feet - but if there are stone bruises on the bottom and that is the problem, do not be surprised to see an abcess blow through. That may even happen at the cornet band area and may be why this swollen right now.

Also is she sore on all her feet? Just the fronts? Just one foot?

Any way you can get photos of her feet?

[Ryle]

The vet saying "if i were my horse I would x-ray her" was in his way recommending x-rays and trying to get you to say yes or no to them. It sounds like he is one of those laid back vets who doesn't try to push anything on anyone and lets you just make your own decisions. This is good and bad as you've seen--because a particular owner may not realize that he is making a serious suggestion and act upon it. And he's right--history and physical findings point to a possible founder (concussion founder or toxin related or metabolic) and x-rays would be the logical step.

Being a candidate for going barefoot doesn't mean that concussion (road) founder isn't a possibility. It can occur whether a horse is shod or not--all it takes is enough work on hard surfaces to cause inflammation in the hoof. Even work on a dirt road can lead to concussion founder because dirt can be as unforgiving as concrete depending on location, type of dirt and weather conditions.

While Bute is a part of appropriate treatment, it is far from all that should be done. It would be a good idea to call the vet back and schedule to have x-rays taken and further treatment options discussed. And while your farrier should be involved, you have to remember that farriers are not medically trained and have HUGELY varying experience and knowledge so you shouldn't cut your vet out of the equation.

[AppyLover]

I can get photos later tonight (I am at work right now). Both fronts are tender but the rear are fine. The road was not rocky, had a few areas but nothing she hasn't handled before. This one actually wasn't bad. My thread about "me and Gaited" that is the road in question. (I will go find the link). She doesn't get stone bruises much anymore. In fact it has been almost 2 years since she has had one.

I am going to get her boots, My hubby and I already talked. I can't go through this again. I am ready to brake down....

I am looking at the easy boot bare.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302&highlight=Gaited

Here is the link to the pictures of the trail we were on. Not sure how much of the road you can see, but these are all I have at the moment.

[AppyLover]

I am calling the vet now to scedule her x-rays...

Normally I don't discount my vet that way, just this particular one rubbed me wrong and I just wanted to get Abby away from him. I am sceduling the appointment with her regular vet.

not open today.....

[westmanfarrier]

You need some support, immediately. Get some foam insulation board (hardware store or someone who has done a project recently). Cut board to about 6x6 square. Place hoof on square and mark outline of hoof. Cut, but be generous, leave extra inch or so at heels. Put board on hoof and secure with vetwrap, co-flex, or elasticon. Duct tape for extra security. The board will compress and support the whole foot overnite. Repeat the procedure with a new board, but leaving the compressed, conformed piece in place. Keep it on until your vet or farrier can visit.

[Arrow]

Wow, sounds confusing! I have no ideas, but will be reading everyone's opinions and waiting for updates.

[cloedoll]

Awe, I can't offer any advice, only e-hugs. (: I'm sorry, that doesn't sound "right."

[AppyLover]

You need some support, immediately. Get some foam insulation board (hardware store or someone who has done a project recently). Cut board to about 6x6 square. Place hoof on square and mark outline of hoof. Cut, but be generous, leave extra inch or so at heels. Put board on hoof and secure with vetwrap, co-flex, or elasticon. Duct tape for extra security. The board will compress and support the whole foot overnite. Repeat the procedure with a new board, but leaving the compressed, conformed piece in place. Keep it on until your vet or farrier can visit.

She is on very soft bedding right now and moving around normal. Should I still support it like this?

[vicklynn]

Myst has front feet issues. She has to have shoes on her fronts, and shes got the thick Draft feet, you'd think she would be fine, but nope.
Why? Cause she has so much weight on her front end that it causes her issues.
She is happy as a clam with shoes on her fronts now.
I hope that is the only issue you deal with, and noting more.

[westmanfarrier]

She is on very soft begging right now and moving around normal. Should I still support it like this?

Unless you are on pea gravel or sand, I think I would go with the support. If the horse is comfortable though it is up to your discretion. If it is laminitis, this sort of support can minimize injury.

[AppyLover]

That was what I wanted to know, Thank you westman. I'll get her supported as soon as I can today.

[vicklynn]

Good deal Appy. Gotta keep them feet happy. No foot, no horse.
((HUGS))

[AppyLover]

That is what scares me vicklynn...

Abby is a huge part of who I am. I can not loose her over something I should have prevented.

[vicklynn]

You'll be fine hon. I let Myst go to long without shoes on her fronts, and I decided, nope, no more, she has to have shoes on her fronts. She's a happy clam now. She did go barefoot happily for some time, just changed, and I tried to wait it out to see if she would be ok, she wasnt, but she is now.
((HUGS)) Barefoot is not for all horses. Im glad your getting her padded, or booted for now. Your baby will thank you for it.

[gaited07]

Appy,
Lots of good advice. Call Monday morning to Desert Equine and schedule x-rays for Tuesday.
I would also give her the added support of the foam board. (can't hurt, only help)

Keep us posted

Lots of (((((HUGS)))))

[Cat]

This wasn't your normal vet? Support them, let her move about at her own pace - don't confine her to a stall, but don't make her move either if she doesn't want to. Then let your normal vet look at them and make the diagnosis.

[AppyLover]

No this vet was a new guy at the office I take Abby to. I am making an appointment with her regular vet on monday. I am going to call them as soon as they open, and set up an appointment for tuesday after my farrier looks at her in the morning.

But in the mean time I am going to put her in some Davis Barrier boots. I get off work in 2 more hours and I am heading straight to the tack store.

I did get a call from a friend today who boards out at the same stable Ariesgrl131, and she said Abby is moving around normal and was looking ok. So right now I am ok too, but I still am taking her in as soon as I can.

[lovesfortune]

I hope that you get things figured out with her soon.

Do boots offer the same support/protection as the foam would? Just curious, as I have very limited hoof knowledge.

[vicklynn]

If a horse has an injured sole, padding is always welcomed, even inside a boot.
Ive booted, but also had loads of cotton balls inside the boot, on the sole. It helps, depending on the issue is weather you need the padding and boot.
Over 3 months of doing that when City was lamed up.

[westmanfarrier]

You need semi firm support. What the foam board does is compress and forms to the sole of the hoof so that every square inch of the bottom of the foot is helping with the load. It also allows the horse to 'self adjust' its palmar angle to where he is most comfortable, which is why we add the second pad the next day. Usually in a case of laminitis with some rotation I will see the horse compress much more at the heel.

A boot with no insert does not do this, you might as well be standing on concrete. Even with the thin inserts, I think I would rather have them standing in bedding.

[mtnmollie]

I read about "road foundered" in one of Ben Greens books.

At an endurance ride they taught me, "you contition a horse for hard surfaces. "

A little bit of hard surface is good- they said.

Bare feet must be conditioned like muscles-slowly.

One does not ride in a 100 mile race without conditioning their horse.

This is the second bare-foot horse I have read about that maybe foundered.

Cally foundered before I bought her- I put a mustang trim on her and she got sound.

Good luck with your horse.

[AppyLover]

Update:

Abby is doing better this morning. I did pick up a set of boots last night and let her ware them through out the night. Today when I got to her stall this morning she was jumping around and trying to play.

I understand about the padding and once I can get to a hardware store that doesn't close before I get off work I will get some. But the boots appeared to have helped a little, so that I am greatful for.

I forgot my camara, but the bottom of her hooves are very bruised (I can not for the life of me figure out how I missed this just a few days ago). I did feel heat around her cornet band last night, but this morning it has subsided.

I am still calling her vet tomorrow morning though and sceduling an exam w/ pending x-ray.

Abby has been barefoot for a long time now, and hard surfaces are all we ever really get to ride on. I am very puzzled as to why this ride caused injury. The only difference about that ride is it is at a higher elevation then Las Vegas.

[mtnmollie]

Geeze- strange. I wonder what the vet will say?

[SedonaThunder]

What if her feet were more sensitive BEFORE the ride? Was there any change at all in her feed, or maybe the grass due to weather, different trim... just trying to think of things that could have effected the hooves since it doesn't seem the ride itself should have done it.

[AppyLover]

No feed changes, the only thing I started to do was put shaving in her stall because the sand was tearing up her hocks. I ride oftian so I don't think a softer stall bed would have done this. But I don't know.

mtnmollie: I do too. I really hate the waiting game, I just want to know now.

[westmanfarrier]

If you are seeing the bruising on the bottom of the feet, this is a chronic problem, not acute, as bruising is happening subsolar, on the inside. What you are seeing is bruising that is growing out.

I would like to see pictures.

[Remali]

Hmmm, if she has bruising it sounds like she has bruised soles to me, and not founder, but I sure am no expert. That vet should have been able to tell if it was founder or not, well, then again, not ALL vets are great with hoof/feet problems (I found that out!). The horse will have warm hooves/pasterns and a bounding pulse with founder and be very reluctant to move and will sort of "walk on eggshells". My Arabian mare foundered back in 1999, and at first she seemed a bit sore but was always willing to walk. I had her x-rayed and she did have rotation of the coffin bone in her feet ( 7 in one, and 9 degrees in the other). My farrier fitted her with supportive liliy pads the first day, and it helped a lot (I had her on bute daily too), then he came back out and put heartbar shoes on her. I kept her on a grass hay-only diet, a soft sandy stall with lots of bedding at night, and a sandy paddock during the day and let her walk as much as she wanted to. She recovered really well. X-rays would be a good idea to rule out any coffin bone rotation if it may be founder. But I sure hope it is something else and not founder.

[AppyLover]

Right Front


357

358

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360

[AppyLover]

Left front.


361

362

363

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[AppyLover]

365
This is Abby's stall (before I mucked tonight).

366
Abby just waiting to be fed after fitting her boots for the night.


I did not get pics but her rear hooves show minor redness on the frog and souls as well, but the fronts are deffinately worse. :( As far as the bruising goes. But over all she is doing ok.

Also all pictures where taken before her dose of bute for the night.

[lovesfortune]

hmm..waiting to read what the experts say. thanks for the pictures

[AppyLady]

Was the road gravel rather than just dirt? Our horses can handle rocky trails just fine, but too many miles on gravel will make them sore.

[missdixie]

Wait, road founder? Did you take her on some seriously long trailer ride? Because that's how they get it, and it's usually only on a looong ride and only if they got their feet trimmed right beforehand...

[SedonaThunder]

Wait, road founder? Did you take her on some seriously long trailer ride? Because that's how they get it, and it's usually only on a looong ride and only if they got their feet trimmed right beforehand...
I'm thinking you didn't mean to say "trailer" but "trail". Road founder is caused by excessive concussion and is also called mechanical founder.

From Keith Seeley's (Farrier) website:
Is road founder different from regular founder?
A non-metabolic condition that can cause founder is called ‘road-founder’ or ‘concussion founder’. This also has many of the usual characteristics of metabolic founder, but will generally have nothing to do with food; it has to do with the feet taking too hard of a pounding. This situation generally has to do with the lack of conditioning of the feet and body so they can endure the extreme use they have experienced. If your horse is a ‘couch potato’, typically stall-bound, or has a low-exercise daily regiment and / or soft surface to stand on, don’t expect that horse to be able to win an Endurance race without suffering some severe side effects.

[missdixie]

Nope, actually meant trailer. The only time I ever heard of road founder was in reference to when I was having my horse trailered 1300 miles, my farrier told me not to have his feet done for at least 2 weeks beforehand because he would road founder. I wasn't aware it was from riding also!

From the Ultimate Horse Site

Road Founder
When a horse is worked on hard ground, they can founder. Long rides in horse trailers without cushioning flooring may also cause road founder.

[gaited07]

Appylover,
It looks like she does have bruising. I also see that her stance is that of a normal horse, not a horse who is going into a founder. Her hindend would be more under her to take her weight off the front end.
It would be interesting to see HoustonFarrier, Ryle and west (?) give some imput. See if you can change to title to attract their HELP.

[JackieB]

I agree with gaited that I'd like to hear from the hoof experts. It looks to me (but I have no expertise) like the bars are long and laid over. I know that this can cause bruising similar to having a pebble in your shoe. Also, the hoof walls look thin, especially at the toes. Perhaps this is causing her to lack support for the soles. Last winter when I trimmed Buster poorly and left him with very little hoof wall down at the bottom, Patty told me that I was lucky that he was walking on snow because that was the only reason Buster was sound. But like I said, I really don't have expertise. These are just two things that I think I might be seeing correctly.

It never hurts to have a good set of x-rays. They are expensive, but provide a lot of valuable information. We got a set for Buster a year ago and it confirmed no serious problems inside the hoof and helped me figure out how to best keep him sound.

All best wishes. We all know how scary this type of thing is. Keep us posted.

[AppyLover]

The trailer rides I take Abby on are just to the south side of Las Vegas, Maybe an hour.

Thank you every one for checking and giving advice and encouragement, I am greatfull to you all.

Alright I am off to bed (10:44pm) I still have to work tomorrow. But I will check in with an update. Good night.

[Peggy Sue]

I would also like to add that my mare had mechical founder and had NOTHING to do with being ridden or in a trailer .... she was simply cut too short ... therefore putting TOO much pressure on her sole

[AppyLover]

This morning Abby is moving around just fine. I have a vet appointment tomorrow with HER vet and I talked to my farrier and resceduled that appointment until later so we don't screw up anything if something is going on, we don't want to make any possible conditions worse.

But so far all is well and now we wait for tomorrow.

[Country Girl 43]

Oh I hope everything turns out OK and it is just bruising. I know the pains of having hoof problems as I am going through that with my Dreamer. You are in my thoughts....please keep us updated.

[HoustonFarrier]

Well, I think everything has been covered already. It looks to me like she was just used too much for what her feet are able to handle.

Steve

[AppyLover]

Thanks for checking in here, Steve. I think she is just baddly bruised, and even though I still am not happy at least I am not freeking out anymore. I talked to her vet and he seems to think the same as you said, but we will know more tomorrow. X-rays are pending on what her doc says to do.

And as a prevenative I have an appointment set up with our farrier for boot fitting so this doesn't happen again. I feel awfull putting Ab through this. I just want her better.

[vicklynn]

Hope to hear good news from the vet(possible x-rays).
Glad you have the farrier set up to work with you.

[gaited07]

Glad to hear the the update. And thank you Steve for stopping by. I know you farrier and tech guys/gals are pretty awesome with your skillful advice.

[HoustonFarrier]

And thank you Steve for stopping by. .
You are most welcome :) (Thanks for thanking me....)

Steve

[FoxFireEMT]

Appy I'm sorry to hear that you & your girl had to go through this! I hope things get better soon. Thank you so much for the post (however) because I never have heard of this & my horse is barefooted! It is something that I & others need to be aware of!

[AppyLover]

Thanks FoxFire.

Abby is doing well this morning, she is bright eyed and a lettle spunky. There is no heat in her cornet bands or hooves.

I am feeling possitive about our appointment today, I will post as soon as I can to night to give everyone an update.

[AppyLover]

:clap::clap::clap::clap:


I have good news!!!!!!!

Abby gets a clean bill of health. Doc had two x-rays done. She just has bad bruising and a little blood blister had formed on the left hoof (which explained why that one was more tender). But doc was impressed with how thick her soles where and her bone angles are near perfect.

So stall rest, a little bute and padded boots for the next week and then trail riding boots from here on out to prevent bruising again. And Lots of love, and treats:innocent:.

This was a very informative vet visit and doc did say that severe stone bruising can look like the onset of laminitis. So in a nut shell good thing we had x-rays. I have peace now and I can focus on getting my horse healed.

[Stellaluna]

I've been following this thread waiting to see what the diagnosis was and I'm so glad to hear it's nothing serious! :clap:

[AppyLover]

Thank you. I am so relieved.

[JackieB]

That's wonderful news!

[Peggy Sue]

WooHoo doing a happy dance for you!!!

[AppyLover]

Thank you thank you.

I was looking for the happy dance smiley too, but the clapping one worked. A huge weight is off my shoulders.

[WashingtonBay]

Very good news. :)

[Miracle Whip]

That is not a DIRT road, I would call that gravel in my mind. My barefoot horses could not walk on 16 miles of a road like that and they have never been shod. Barefoot is as barefoot does. If I was a serious trail rider, and went on trails like that, on a REGULAR basis, my horses would probably have shoes. We do go on gravel roads, but never more than a mile or 2 and rarely more than two or 3 times a month. I will take them up and down the road once a week, but that is less than a mile even... 16 miles> did I read that right?

[mtnmollie]

yeah! good! :cowboy:

Barefoot never worked for me until I
had my horses walk on rock.

[Cat]

Miracle Whip - About all I ride are gravel roads or rocky trails with my barefooters. Each barefoot horse is different so you need to know your horse. My haflinger and my husband's draft breezes along on that stuff no problem for miles on end. Not 16 miles yet, but I'm sure if my tush ever worked up to that, they wouldn't have much problem with it. I haven't even had stone bruises on either of them. On the other hand my solid paint can only stand about a mile and a half and walks on the grass whenever possible.

Appy - I'm so glad it wasn't laminitis! Quick healing to your horse.

[gaited07]

I'm so relieved to hear the GOOD news.

[SedonaThunder]

Yay - Great news!!! I can imagine your relief!

[AppyLover]

That is not a DIRT road, I would call that gravel in my mind. My barefoot horses could not walk on 16 miles of a road like that and they have never been shod. Barefoot is as barefoot does. If I was a serious trail rider, and went on trails like that, on a REGULAR basis, my horses would probably have shoes. We do go on gravel roads, but never more than a mile or 2 and rarely more than two or 3 times a month. I will take them up and down the road once a week, but that is less than a mile even... 16 miles> did I read that right?

First. Do not get snide with me when YOU do not know me OR my horse! My horse is conditioned for long rides and this one yes it was about 16 miles and yes my opinion is it was a dirt road. NOT gravel. And yes I am a serious trail rider and this road was mild compared to what we normally ride on. The pace was more than she was ready for and we are prepared for it next time around. The way I ride is obviously different from yours so please do not judge me again.


Thank you everyone for your support and I will keep you updated on Abby's healing and even post about the boot fitting.

[Equine_Woman]

Yay!!! Glad for the great news!!! Whew! What a relief!!!!

[Arrow]

Hip hip hooray!:cheers:

[offgridgirl]

Glad to hear all is fine and dandy!! Thanks for sharing your experience and I hope the boots work out!!

[gaited07]

First. Do not get snide with me when YOU do not know me OR my horse! My horse is conditioned for long rides and this one yes it was about 16 miles and yes my opinion is it was a dirt road. NOT gravel. And yes I am a serious trail rider and this road was mild compared to what we normally ride on. The pace was more than she was ready for and we are prepared for it next time around. The way I ride is obviously different from yours so please do not judge me again.


Thank you everyone for your support and I will keep you updated on Abby's healing and even post about the boot fitting.


Very nicely said Appylover!

Miracle whip,
As Cat said, every horse is different. The horse in this topic is WELL CONDITIONED (check photo albums) and has handled numerous extensive rides over all kinds of terrain.
Here in the desert Southwest, we have millions of miles of open space to ride and on a average, Appylover and I cover 15-20+ miles.
Just to let you know, if my horse had the hooves of abby, he would be barefoot too riding in sand, rock, mountains, brush, and whatever else our trails offer us. Welcome to REAL world of trails!

I just wanted to add;
I've been conditioned to WALK across 16' fire pits with my bare feet without any signs of burns. Key=CONDITIONING DANTOTSU;)

[westmanfarrier]

I just wanted to add;
I've been conditioned to WALK across 16' fire pits with my bare feet without any signs of burns. Key=CONDITIONING DANTOTSU;)

Interestingly enough, Mythbusters just did a segment on fire walking. They found that surface area is the key. This seems to also be the key to weight bearing for a equine. Hmmm

Step on a small rock that is sitting on a hard surface, ouch. Why? A high amount of pressure in a very small surface area of sole. Step on a big rock and you roll right over it, well so long as the limb stays straight. Weight dispersed over a larger surface area.

[gaited07]

Interestingly enough, Mythbusters just did a segment on fire walking. They found that surface area is the key. This seems to also be the key to weight bearing for a equine. Hmmm

Step on a small rock that is sitting on a hard surface, ouch. Why? A high amount of pressure in a very small surface area of sole. Step on a big rock and you roll right over it, well so long as the limb stays straight. Weight dispersed over a larger surface area.

I missed the myth busters show on this. (cool show, really enjoy it)
The training (fire pit walk) that I speak of is core training, mind SET over matter. It works! I've done it about 4 different times and would do it again. What a charge, anchor it and GO!
As a kid, I would run around with bare feet all over the place. I would also have races down our gravel driveway (over 1/2 mile long). My feet was conditioned (calloused) to the point I could not feel anything. However, you speak of that one little rock, you know the one, sharp, pointy one, yea OUCH but shake it off and finish the race. (the things we do as kids but what fun it was)

[Mercury]

Yay! Congrats on the diagnosis! We all have the live and learn experiences, so don't beat yourself up too bad about it!

[Diane of Buck's Hollow]

Yea!!!! Glad to hear the good news. You take it easy now Abby.:)

[AppyLover]

Thank you everyone. Abby is doing good and resting. And as always begging for treats.

[gaited07]

Yes, I can vouch for this!
Abby looks great. And yes, she is looking for those treats. (she likes coca cola:)

[Miracle Whip]

I still think 16 miles barefoot on terrain like that is a bit much, but at least you understand the importance of conditioning! It was probably just a freak thing.

[gaited07]

I still think 16 miles barefoot on terrain like that is a bit much, but at least you understand the importance of conditioning! It was probably just a freak thing.


Wow, Miracle, you must not ride much.
Just for your information, 16 miles on this trail is nothing for this horse in this thread. For the most part of this trail is "DIRT" there is a small section that has "SOME" small gravel (about one mile or mile and half out of the 16 miles)
Have you personally been on this trail? I think not, so your opinion has been heard however, doesn't fly since you have "NO CLUE". As the old saying goes, "You can only voice your opinion if you've walked in my shoes/footsteps." Oh, I forgot, you only ride about "a mile":eek: You or your horses could never handle a real ride.:cool:
I've included a picture of the area again so your expert eyes can see the terrain. Notice the hoof tracks SUNK INTO THE SOIL, and ALL THAT GRAVEL?????

[AppyLover]

I still think 16 miles barefoot on terrain like that is a bit much, but at least you understand the importance of conditioning! It was probably just a freak thing.

Miracle whip, I respect your opinion. I don’t agree with it, but I respect it.

I am willing to debate riding stiles with you if you so choose, so put your mind at ease knowing that on average I do 12 miles on a gravel surface, about 10 miles in sand, and 15-20 miles mountain trail/terrain a week, when Abby is sound. I use my horse as a jack-of-all-trades and she can handle almost any terrain or obstacle I lead her to. There are some that go out of our limits i.e. Lava rock, and shear drop offs, that I would never push my horse to cross or navigate.

Yes what happened to Abby was just a fluke. The terrain we where covering, had nothing to do with it. I missed judged her readiness for the pace I asked for. I feel badly for that and have learned a very valuable lesson. I am in the process of buying trail boots to protect Abby against the shock of such a hard pace, but know that if we are going slower or easier on a trail “like that” she most likely won’t get the boots.

As has been stated, one must know your horse, and every horse is different.

As you have admitted you would not ride your horse on the terrains I ride mine. So, I ask you, how do you ride? Are you just a hobby trail rider on the weekend, who rides dressage in the arenas during the week? Or…..? Regardless of the answer we are very different riders with very different horses. My way of riding may not be for you or even to your liking, but the fact is, it is the way I ride, get over it.

[Miracle Whip]

I do many things with my horses but "trail riding" is not one of them. I ride about a mile down the road and back if I can, unfortunately I have a husband with Epilepsy and 2 jobs so no, I don't have time to spend riding 16 miles plus drving time to get to a trail ride. Does that mean I am less skilled - no, I compete in dressage, take riding lessons, AND when I was a teenager, I used to ride 10 or more miles a day on the weekends. A riding session, at home, would consist of 30 minutes or more doing the rising trot around the rock pile or up and down the hills in the pasture. I also sometimes compete in speed events at local shows and I have placed in barrel racing and pole bending.

Are my horses in shape? I think they could handle the AVERAGE trail ride, yes, which in my riding club is about 5 miles or so. I wish I could ride as much as you do but I don't have time. Both my horses are well behaved even though they don't get rode that often, when I ride I am an ACTIVE rider, and I require obedience. My mare would LOVE to trail ride as much as you do, for me, that long of ride just bores my socks off. Some people get into trail riding, others don't.

I am not putting you down. I probably said more than I should have. Again, I am glad that you do work with your horse and ride on many types of terrain. Too many horses, including mine, don't get enough exercise.

[WashingtonBay]

Personally, I think you're both trying to put each other down, this should not be about ego, it's about considerations in horse keeping, particularly barefoot trail horses, this one in particular that did just a little too much and will now take time to recover.

I've got a barefoot trail horse, and she could probably hold up all day on a road like that.... once... twice a month maybe, beyond that she's going to wear herself down faster than she can grow. Even with hard feet, what's harder, the feet or the road?

Appylover... you ride more than most. Good for you, I think when you start riding as hard as you do, then bare feet will always be the weak link, and most times boots are needed. Or... that is why they invented horse shoes. :) (ducking :D)

[AppyLover]

That was all I was trying to say. We are different riders. I never assumed your horses where out of shape or pushy or any other nonsence like that. I am a trail rider with hopes of crossing the line into endurence competitions. I can not ride dressage and neither is my horse trained in it, does that mean I am less of a skilled rider than you? No, just different.

I have to work and plan for my ride time, I work full time, am a mother of a 4 year old little girl, and I am married to an active duty husband. Believe me I understand time costraints. Our lifestyles are different, but that is ok.
Sometimes while typing and then reading a typed responce, something gets lost in translation. I have no hard feelings.

[AppyLover]

Personally, I think you're both trying to put each other down, this should not be about ego, it's about considerations in horse keeping, particularly barefoot trail horses, this one in particular that did just a little too much and will now take time to recover.

I've got a barefoot trail horse, and she could probably hold up all day on a road like that.... once... twice a month maybe, beyond that she's going to wear herself down faster than she can grow. Even with hard feet, what's harder, the feet or the road?

Appylover... you ride more than most. Good for you, I think when you start riding as hard as you do, then bare feet will always be the weak link, and most times boots are needed. Or... that is why they invented horse shoes. :) (ducking :D)



I agree WB, though I was not trying to put MW down in the least bit. I was offended at first because that was the tone I read in her posts to me. I think that has been cleared up between us now.

As for barefoot being the week link, I am seeing that. Even as much as I love having my horse bare foot, now that we are covering the long distance with speed, I now have seen first hand that my horse needs a little protection. I still won't go as far as shoes;), but there have been wonderful advancements in boots. I have a fitting with my Ferrier in a couple of weeks once Abby is 100% sound again.

[WashingtonBay]

Good luck. I hope she does well in them. I think your terrain is the kind where boots work. Up here, at least in the wet and mud season, I would rather shoe than deal with boots. - and yea - we wimmin can be prickly :D

[AppyLover]

Good luck. I hope she does well in them. I think your terrain is the kind where boots work. Up here, at least in the wet and mud season, I would rather shoe than deal with boots. - and yea - we wimmin can be prickly :D

:p

I remember the mud :doh:.

[Cat]

My question has always been - if the hooves aren't holding up to the distance that the horse is going - how are the joints we can't see holding up? I don't know, just something I've always wondered.

However, just to put things in persepective - horses in the wild move on average 20 miles PER DAY over rough terrain without wearing their hooves away to nothing. But you have to put into consideration the weight of the rider (more weight, faster wear), the environment that the horse lives full time (a horse that lives on rocks is going to be better conditioned to ride on rocks vs a cushy pasture), the horse's current hoof condition (I do feel genetics has some effect on the hoof - even as very young foals you can see a difference in some of the horses, and current trim, nutrition, etc.), and environmental conditions (a lot of rain recently vs being very dry, etc).

All these factors play a part in how far that particular horse can go without hoof protection. You can't base what another person's horse can do based on your own horse. They are different. Heck, as I have seen with my own eyes - the same horse with different environmental factors will have different results. I can't ride as far if we have had a lot of rain. Toby's hooves are softer and wear faster than when they are completely dry. Which is also why I like to soak their hooves whenever possible before trimming as well. :) Makes it easier on me!

It could have been the speed of this ride, it could have just been a fluke and the horse just stepped on a rock or two wrong, it could have been different nutrition (season changing could effect the nutrition in hay/grass) caused the hooves to soften a bit, or even different weather - if it was wetter or something. However - I do want to point out that just plain shoes doe not really help against stone bruising - I've seen plenty of shod horses with stone bruises. You would either need pads or boots to protect the sole of the hoof.

[Remali]

Glad to hear she is doing better and that it was not founder.

[Miracle Whip]

Ah, back on solid ground. My posts do come across wrong at times and folks do take offense. Some forum members know me better than others and take my comments with a grain of salt and others don't. Of all of us here, I will probably "stir the pot" more than others, but keep in mind, that MOSTLY I am pretty reasonable and will listen to reason or come around eventually. WBay pretty much summed up everything I wanted to say in this scenario.

I only do entry level dressage anyway...don't give me too much credit for that. I just have never been a trail riding person. I enjoy the views on my gravel roads, but it doesn't take long to see them either...hence the 1 - 2 mile rule.

[WashingtonBay]

My question has always been - if the hooves aren't holding up to the distance that the horse is going - how are the joints we can't see holding up? I don't know, just something I've always wondered.

I think the next weak links up the chain, after the feet, are muscle and joint wear and tear. I think on a per day basis, a shod horse will usually tire before his feet hurt, so the horse's fitness is the weak link. And over a lifetime, certainly joints do wear out.

However, just to put things in persepective - horses in the wild move on average 20 miles PER DAY over rough terrain without wearing their hooves away to nothing. But you have to put into consideration the weight of the rider (more weight, faster wear), the environment that the horse lives full time (a horse that lives on rocks is going to be better conditioned to ride on rocks vs a cushy pasture), the horse's current hoof condition (I do feel genetics has some effect on the hoof - even as very young foals you can see a difference in some of the horses, and current trim, nutrition, etc.), and environmental conditions (a lot of rain recently vs being very dry, etc). The weak link in the wild horse model I think is not only the weight of the rider, but the rider controlling the decisions on speed, where and when to go, and even changing where the horse might choose to place each footfall. Horses move differently loose to make their own decisions, and will alter what they're doing if it hurts or is tiring them. They'll take a break, they'll choose carefully where to put their feet. Horses under saddle don't have that luxury.

And of course, the wild horse model must always allow for having a large herd to choose from with the slowest one in the group getting eaten. ;) You can't bond with any one of them, because it works as model for finding the strongest in a group, not as a life plan for one particular horse.

[AppyLover]

Miracle whip, It is ok. I'm quick to get "prickly" but I do try to think calmly before I respond, sometimes I get defensive first, but I am not above a good discussion. ;)
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Weather here did go through a "wet" spell a few weeks prior to our ride, so that could have been a factor, feed hasn't changed, I feed pellet hay so who knows what discrepancy in the nutrition contents are.

I have been working with Abby hard to keep her barefoot and healthy. But even I have to admit that we have reached our limit for what we can do with out protection. On the joint topic I do give Abby a joint supplement to help prevent injuries to her joints and help speed healing if an injury was to occur. I also have her on biotin and a well-balanced grain to keep her in top nutritional shape. I also put support boots on all four of Abby’s legs to help the impact energy.

The mustang model is what my farrier has followed when it comes to Abby's hoof care and even she agrees it is time for boots. We are on our next chapter of riding and being barefoot just isn't enough.