Would you use an Amish trainer? Cowboy?

[Miracle Whip]

I just wondered if you would use an Amish trainer. My horse was originally trained by the Amish. While there were gaps in her training, she was also very work oriented. My friend also sent her horse to an Amish trainer and got good results for her money.

When I was a kid we had a rodeo cowboy train my horse and he did ok. She knew how to neck rein, and had some decent, smooth gaits as a result of that training. Before she went to him her trot would shake your teeth out.

The most abusive trainer that I have seen was a trainer at a large Arabian show barn. He yanked on the reins so hard the horse's mouth was bleeding. My opinion about trainers is that a hard ass trainer is good. Not abusive. Just hard ass. I don't know what else to call it. For example, I am timid about cantering, and I get frustrated easily. I think it takes a very strong and tough personality to train horses. The Arabian trainer told me that yanking was the only way to get and maintain the head carriage that he wanted for shows. It was kind of like a one rein stop, which I don't like either.

So lets open this up for discussion.

[elevenelevenxo]

I would be open to sending Rebel out to anyone... *IF* they know what they're doing and it entails cruelty-free methods of training. There's a large population of Amish here in Ohio and I know quite a few people who send their horses to them for training. They're not always the most reputable outlet but people do so because the price is typically considerably less than traditional trainers.

That said, traditional trainers are also not always the most reputable outlet either, like the Arab trainer you mentioned.

It's all in the individual person.

[ImaBronsonBear]

It depends on the person, and the horse. Some horses have that bounce-back personality that deal with anything and learn fast. I rode one horse that had obviously been cowboyed, and he was a nervous wreck with all new riders. He is the wilting wall flower type that just fell apart when treated firmly.

Personally, and no offense to anyone else, i'll train my own horse, thank you. There are just too many mean, shady, and underhanded trainers in this world. They can look awesome, have great recommendations, and still beat your horse.

[zoel_222]

Like what eleven said, I would if they knew what they were doing and would use non-abusive methods. It depends on the person. We don't have many (if any) Amish around here though.

[jeezitsjacki]

depends on the person really for me, not as much the style. Ben is very sensitive and does NOT do well with aggression, so I would be very careful of that because he will turn into a wreck. but luckily he is older and I dont have to send him to training!

[gabhainn]

The easiest way to deal with trainers whether they are amish or not, would be to look at the outcome. Find horses that have been trained by whatever trainer you look at and see how they do, any reputable trainer should be more than willing to give you references, just be diligent in your follow up. Ask for the last x number of horses he/she has trained, and then follow up with the horse owners.The reason I say last number of horses is to get a true guage of their capabilities, not just references of the ones they want to give you which naturally will be the ones that turned out best

[vicklynn]

I think it depends on the trainer, no matter Amish or not.

The Amish work their horses hard, so it would be a concern of mine.
On the other hand, I had Storm sent out to get some bugs out of him before I sat him, and that guy(trainer)messed him up and I had to start all over with him. Glad Storm trusted me, it took me 3 weeks to get back what he ruined in 3 weeks, and he lost at least 75lbs. Bad for an abused horse.
So, local trainers I am leary of.

[gabhainn]

one horse that had obviously been cowboyed, .
Define cowboyed, I am a cowboy and know lots of others, none of us are heavyhanded or abusive to our horses and train in as humane way as possible, I think this kind of negative stereo typing is unnecessary, and I am not attacking you! I just see it thrown around a lot on here, and sometimes feel the need to remind people that Craig Cameron, Buck Brannamen, Chris Cox, John Lyons, Pat Parelli, Dennis Ries, Curt and Tammy Pate, Monty Roberts , Clinton Anderson not to mention Tom and Bill Dorrance and Ray Hunt ( the "founders" of the so called Natural Horsemanship movement), and most clinicians in the western horse world are all cowboys....Kevin

[WashingtonBay]

Define cowboyed, I am a cowboy and know lots of others, none of us are heavyhanded or abusive to our horses and train in as humane way as possible, I think this kind of negative stereo typing is unnecessary, and I am not attacking you! I just see it thrown around a lot on here, and sometimes feel the need to remind people that Craig Cameron, Buck Brannamen, Chris Cox, John Lyons, Pat Parelli, Dennis Ries, Curt and Tammy Pate, Monty Roberts , Clinton Anderson not to mention Tom and Bill Dorrance and Ray Hunt ( the "founders" of the so called Natural Horsemanship movement), and most clinicians in the western horse world are all cowboys....Kevin

I agree. I don't mind a cowboy with a full range of tactics that might be used, but no trainer with his head screwed on straight introduces himself as a hard ass. I'd probably assume if he felt that need, his ego is deficient in some substantial way. :)

And I have great respect for the lifestyle and work ethic of the Amish - there aren't a lot of them in this area though so... no direct experience.

[Petra]

No I wouldn't...I am not very good with people I wouldn't know who I can trust. Doesn't matter what label the trainer has.
Besides I want my horse home with me. :)

[vicklynn]

Kevin, to me, the difference between a cowboy and a cowboyed horse are big.
A cowboy comes in many forms, tight jeans is my fav..lol..kidding. A cowboy rides his horse without cowboying it. Cowboying to me is someone VERY hard handed and can be to the point of abuse or is abusive.
Im not talking about a horse that needs dropped to the ground, but IF a horse needs dropped, its done for the right reasons. Cowboying a horse, the horse is broke the wrong and hardhanded way, not the proper way.
I dont see you as cowboying a horse, just riding/handleing a horse like a cowboy should.:)
I sure hope that made sence.

[luvs2ride1979]

I've had too many mediocre and bad experiences with trainers. I won't ever send a horse off to one again. I'll trailer my horse to someone and get some one-on-one lessons/help, but I won't leave a horse with anyone ever again...

[ImaBronsonBear]

Kevin, to me, the difference between a cowboy and a cowboyed horse are big.
A cowboy comes in many forms, tight jeans is my fav..lol..kidding. A cowboy rides his horse without cowboying it. Cowboying to me is someone VERY hard handed and can be to the point of abuse or is abusive.
Im not talking about a horse that needs dropped to the ground, but IF a horse needs dropped, its done for the right reasons. Cowboying a horse, the horse is broke the wrong and hardhanded way, not the proper way.
I dont see you as cowboying a horse, just riding/handleing a horse like a cowboy should.:)
I sure hope that made sence.

^ Ditto what she said.:) I have seen and do see cowboys who ride very, very well. I guess it's just a term i use for horses that have been treated roughly and harshly by trainers who don't know what they were doing. I don't associate cowboys with the term "cowboyed" at all.

[Palogal]

I'll train my own as well :) but if I had to send them to someone it would probably be someone who really and truly loves horses. I have not found any cowboys that fit that description...just my experience. I would not send my horse to a Parelli trainer either. As far as the Amish, no idea never met an Amish horse trainer.

[elevenelevenxo]

I would not send my horse to a Parelli trainer either.

Agreed! I know there are some Parelli-trained horses out there who are phenomenal and the people doing the training really know what they're doing....but it seems like the majority of Parelli people I run into are just plain crazy....

[Peggy Sue]

it all depends on the person not the "style" or "type" of person they are I don't caterogize too much when it comes to training..

I know one Amish man I would LOVE to send a horse too... I deal with him alot and ahve seen how much he CARES about his stock. I have heard HORROR stories about several BNNH trainers... talking teeth gritting punch thier lights out :) I would not send my horse to any trainer that I can not drop in and visit within reason..

Sassy and Moosa have both spent 30 to 45 days with outside trainers... I was not as happy with Moosa as I was Sassy but she was much further along when she went. They are brothers and use alot of same methods and styles and get good results BUT ... they are different.

They are "cowboys" team ropers in fact :)

[Gypsy Rose]

I don't think I could ever send a horse out to be trained. I would have to work with it myself, preferably with some guidance from a good trainer. It's been way too many years since I've trained a youngster or green broke, or even rehabbed a mishandled one. And even then, not too many of each. However, I have my own methods of cueing my horse, and teaching such, and like to have the horse tuned into my sensitivity level with the aids.

[rocknK]

Sometimes cowboys gotta "cowboy" some on dumb horses to get a days work done.

[Miracle Whip]

Maybe I should define hard ass. She doesn't advertise herself as being that way but she is the most practical and no nonsense person I have met. If she is working with a horse she will not even allow you to touch or pet it until she is done working with the horse. For example, the first day that she tried to catch Ginger, she would not let me try to use an apple to catch her. She would not let me talk to her or pet her until Ginger was listening to Carla...which took a long time actually. She does not allow interruptions of any kind. She is totally focused on the horse and she just comes across as someone who would not allow any "guff"

This works much better than the "trainer" for example that wanted to lunge Sabrina until she learned the verbal cues for "WALK< TROT < and CANTER" Yeah right. That didn't work worth 2 cents if you ask me. Maybe it was the horse but she needed some stronger cues than the human voice. I talk to my horses now and I will say CANTER when I ride Whip, but he is broke already and pretty much does what he is told. Sabrina would not. I say CANTER more or less for ME because I want Whip to have as much of a cue as possible because I am chicken to ride him! You can't be lovey dovey and get good results unless you also have the guts to demand obedience.

[TheBadLands]

I just wondered if you would use an Amish trainer. My horse was originally trained by the Amish. While there were gaps in her training, she was also very work oriented. My friend also sent her horse to an Amish trainer and got good results for her money.

They're good for what they do. But you're going to get back a work horse. Not a refined, finished horse. You'll get back a good horse that can work, can handle just about anything, and they tend to use them on their farms while they're in training.



The most abusive trainer that I have seen was a trainer at a large Arabian show barn. He yanked on the reins so hard the horse's mouth was bleeding. My opinion about trainers is that a hard ass trainer is good. Not abusive. Just hard ass. I don't know what else to call it. For example, I am timid about cantering, and I get frustrated easily. I think it takes a very strong and tough personality to train horses. The Arabian trainer told me that yanking was the only way to get and maintain the head carriage that he wanted for shows.

I am going to assume what you mean is that you're looking for a trainer who is brave enough to deal with multiple situations and incidents. Correct? If a trainer can't do that, they're not a trainer.


It was kind of like a one rein stop, which I don't like either.

So lets open this up for discussion.
I am assuming you either have a very misinformed idea of what a one rein stop is. I'd rather ask a horse to slow up a bit with one rein, than consistently put pressure on a young horses mouth and turn them into a hard mouthed idiot.

Define cowboyed, I am a cowboy and know lots of others, none of us are heavyhanded or abusive to our horses and train in as humane way as possible, I think this kind of negative stereo typing is unnecessary, and I am not attacking you! I just see it thrown around a lot on here, and sometimes feel the need to remind people that Craig Cameron, Buck Brannamen, Chris Cox, John Lyons, Pat Parelli, Dennis Ries, Curt and Tammy Pate, Monty Roberts , Clinton Anderson not to mention Tom and Bill Dorrance and Ray Hunt ( the "founders" of the so called Natural Horsemanship movement), and most clinicians in the western horse world are all cowboys....Kevin

What he said.

It depends on the person, and the horse. Some horses have that bounce-back personality that deal with anything and learn fast. I rode one horse that had obviously been cowboyed, and he was a nervous wreck with all new riders. He is the wilting wall flower type that just fell apart when treated firmly.

A good trainer should be able to work a horse according to the horse itself. And be able to gauge the horses' personality and breaking point emotionally.



Sometimes cowboys gotta "cowboy" some on dumb horses to get a days work done.

This is true, too...if I get a horse in who is just nasty... then I'm nasty right back. I've got one here now who would turn on you in a heart beat. You can't bottle feed them all. Some of them need to grow the hell up and get over it. Sorry, but that's life. They're asked to do something for you for roughly an hour out of 24 a day.. they can suck it up and do it. If they want to eat, they can work.

Maybe I should define hard ass. She doesn't advertise herself as being that way but she is the most practical and no nonsense person I have met. If she is working with a horse she will not even allow you to touch or pet it until she is done working with the horse. For example, the first day that she tried to catch Ginger, she would not let me try to use an apple to catch her. She would not let me talk to her or pet her until Ginger was listening to Carla...which took a long time actually. She does not allow interruptions of any kind. She is totally focused on the horse and she just comes across as someone who would not allow any "guff"
I agree with this. I allow owners to come out anytime. But if they call out suggestions or interupt me.. I can just hand over the reins and they can go ahead and do my job for me. And I get paid to sit there and watch.


This works much better than the "trainer" for example that wanted to lunge Sabrina until she learned the verbal cues for "WALK< TROT < and CANTER" Yeah right. That didn't work worth 2 cents if you ask me. Maybe it was the horse but she needed some stronger cues than the human voice. I talk to my horses now and I will say CANTER when I ride Whip, but he is broke already and pretty much does what he is told. Sabrina would not. I say CANTER more or less for ME because I want Whip to have as much of a cue as possible because I am chicken to ride him! You can't be lovey dovey and get good results unless you also have the guts to demand obedience.

I teach them all verbal cues... they also know their lefts and rights. Young horses get very confused easily. And when you get on their back, you have to have some sort of easy and familiar reinforcement to a leg aid. There is nothing wrong with verbal cues.

You can love on a horse and still get a lot of respect and obedience. You have to have a relationship with them. They are herd animals. And it's part of uptaining their mental well being.

[Remali]

Well, there are not very many -- hardly any! -- "trainers" that I would send a horse to. I know several professional Arabian and QH trainers in the area here and almost all of them are really abusive. Also, I've heard a ton of horror stories about the Amish, and judging from what I have seen when I observe the Amish out in the community with their horses, I would avoid them like the plague too. But, that is here in my area....

I would do a ton of research, talk to people who have used that trainer, etc. I know of one trainer around here who uses some Parelli, and I have seen some of the horses who he had in training, and talked to people who have sent horses to him.....he is very good, gentle with the horses, and gets amazing results with his horses, he also rides his horses without a bridle (my kinda trainer), uses a lot of leg cues and stays off the horses' mouth, his horses are soft in the bridle and go along so nicely. I also know of some dressage trainers around here that I would not use, ever. So, it just all depends on the individual person/trainer. I do not like gimmicks, and I don't like draw-reins and tie-downs and I won't put up with any form of force or abuse from a trainer, I tend to prefer the natural horsemanship methods as long as they know what they are doing, etc. Each horse is different and may need a different approach to training so I like a trainer that is flexible too.

I know who the Arabian trainer is that you are talking about, because we had a talk about him one day (won't name names here unless some wants to PM me, I'll gladly discuss it privately, been to enough training barns and Arabian shows so I know a lot of the trainers in the Midwest)......the trainer you are referring to is a total nightmare! Sadly, there are a lot of trainers like him out there. It is one major reason I got out of Arabians and the shows.

[vicklynn]

Sometimes cowboys gotta "cowboy" some on dumb horses to get a days work done.
But there is a difference in how a cowboy cowboys a horse vs an idiot who cowboys them. A cowboy knows how to cowboy a horse, an idiot reverts to ways that lean on or are abusive. Im pretty lax in where I think abuse starts.

Getting a horse into a gaming arena with a 2 x 4 is not good, its cowboying.
Beating a horse is cowboying/abuse.
Beating vs a good smack is a totally different thing.

There is plenty more things Im sure, just to early and I havent had my coffee yet.
No morning coffee, thats abuse...LOL

[farmers_wife]

I dont know if I would send mine to an amish. I have heard good and bad. My friend brought her horse to an amish and it died. From being over worked. Dont remember the whole story.
I would go with a cowboy. If I knew how to train also, i would do it myself.

[mare]

I will judge each person's methods and effectiveness individually.

I am always offended when I see the term "cowboying" in reference to ignorance and abuse. I know of no ranch that wouldn't fire someone for abusing a horse. I know of no cowboy that would abuse a horse.

A license is not required in order to purchase a hat and western boots. And, gear does not a cowboy make.

[WashingtonBay]

I think any time we try to put people who are as different as horse people are and processes as imprecise and variable as horse training is, into small boxes and categories, they don't fit very well.

[Reinmaker]

First the greatest horsemen I have run across are "cowboys" in some sense or another. So I would need a much better definition of cowboy.

I wouldn't personally use an Amish trainer because I don't think any of them train in the discipline I ride.

However, in looking for a trainer there are things I would look for. I know about most of the top trainers in my area so I have a pretty good idea of who I would use or not use. If however I was in a new area and did not know I would go to some shows. I would observe them in the warm up pen, and with their students. I would just soak in as much as I could. Doing this would give me a pretty good feel for who I would want to approach and discuss options with.

As far as for competing I wouldn't go to a trainer without a proven track record. For me in reining, they need to have won money in the NRHA. They need to have students who have been successful.

If they are young and starting out I would want to know what reining/cow horse trainers they had worked for as an apprentice or assistant. Nothing wrong with being young and starting out. If they have the proper background and I like their philosophy and how they handle their horses then I would use them.

It just takes some effort to do your research. Lots of people say they are trainers, and even make a living doing it, that are in reality just adequate riders who can get horses somewhat broke.

The toughest thing is for beginners or folks who don't know a lot yet to choose a trainer because they don't know what to look for. So many times it is just luck of the draw who they get hooked up with and unfortuntately so many times they come away with a bad taste in their mouths for trainers, when in reality there are a lot of good trainers out there doing a great job for their clients. That said there is a good chance they aren't going to be located within 30 minutes of where you live.

[gabhainn]

I will judge each person's methods and effectiveness individually.

I am always offended when I see the term "cowboying" in reference to ignorance and abuse. I know of no ranch that wouldn't fire someone for abusing a horse. I know of no cowboy that would abuse a horse.

A license is not required in order to purchase a hat and western boots. And, gear does not a cowboy make.
I love you thank you for saying that...Kevin

[gabhainn]

I would not send my horse to a Parelli trainer either. I dont like him either but my point was he was a beeg time "name" know what I mean jelly bean?...Kevin

[gabhainn]

and badlands you know how I feel about you if I say more people will talk LOL.................Kevin

[vicklynn]

I will judge each person's methods and effectiveness individually.

I am always offended when I see the term "cowboying" in reference to ignorance and abuse. I know of no ranch that wouldn't fire someone for abusing a horse. I know of no cowboy that would abuse a horse.

A license is not required in order to purchase a hat and western boots. And, gear does not a cowboy make.
Sorry your offended by that term, but it is used widely and the men/women that are considered cowboying a horse should never be hired on a good ranch. Not all ranches are the same.
Why a cowboy is not even in the same class.

[Palogal]

I will judge each person's methods and effectiveness individually.

I am always offended when I see the term "cowboying" in reference to ignorance and abuse. I know of no ranch that wouldn't fire someone for abusing a horse. I know of no cowboy that would abuse a horse.

A license is not required in order to purchase a hat and western boots. And, gear does not a cowboy make.


Well said. A good trainer is a good trainer, regardless of how he (or she ;)) is dressed.

[Palogal]

I dont like him either but my point was he was a beeg time "name" know what I mean jelly bean?...Kevin

Yes, gumdrop I do ;)

[mare]

A story:

A rancher friend had two nieces. Their dad, the rancher's brother, put pressure on him to let the girls come up and help "move cows." The girls, late high school and early college, kept making derogatory remarks about horses being "cowboyed." I started, in response to everytime they misused the term "cowboy, to say, "You mean 'town-boyed, don't you?" They got SO offended. Tough. They tried to use the term even more often, the whole crew started correcting them. Tough.

How's the moniker feel?

[Miracle Whip]

Badlands, the only time I have seen a one rein stop it was very roughly applied. The one rein stops that Clinton Anderson does are another story. I don't always believe in pulling a horse in a very tight circle. Sometimes I do. But for every time that I have made a horse circle, and it worked, I have also tried to do it and it just seems to make things worse, especially on the trail, with other horses, etc...its not a quick fix by any means...at least not for me.

If I could do it and get Whip off the reins I'd be all for it, but I'm not the one to do that and if I asked JJ to do it Whip would be digging a hole to China....

There are dressage type circles and there are circles that make Ginger dance sideways...so its a mixed bag of tricks.

[TheBadLands]

I bolded my stuff because your post was so long.. not because I'm cyber yelling lol ;)

However, in looking for a trainer there are things I would look for. I know about most of the top trainers in my area so I have a pretty good idea of who I would use or not use. If however I was in a new area and did not know I would go to some shows. I would observe them in the warm up pen, and with their students. I would just soak in as much as I could. Doing this would give me a pretty good feel for who I would want to approach and discuss options with.

I think this is the best suggestion yet. It makes things a lot easier to gauge. But then are we talking about a person looking to get a good start on a young horse? Or show horses?

As far as for competing I wouldn't go to a trainer without a proven track record. For me in reining, they need to have won money in the NRHA. They need to have students who have been successful.

If they are young and starting out I would want to know what reining/cow horse trainers they had worked for as an apprentice or assistant. Nothing wrong with being young and starting out. If they have the proper background and I like their philosophy and how they handle their horses then I would use them.

Every trainer has a trainer. And no one knows it all. Reining as a sport is new for me. So I have a trainer. And my trainer has a trainer. And a lot of friends who can give me pointers and help me. That doesn't make me someone not to send your horse to to be started, because I'm not a money earner (yet). I know many good trainers who really prefer to not show at all. For a long time, when dressage was my fortay, I refused to compete. It was too much stress for me. Really, I think whats most important, if someone is looking to get a horse started and ready to go off to finish as a -insert whatever here- then go see that trainer and ride the young horses they have in training at that moment. That's what's most important.


It just takes some effort to do your research. Lots of people say they are trainers, and even make a living doing it, that are in reality just adequate riders who can get horses somewhat broke.

Once again I agree. I keep all of my clients available for referencing. And I mean ALL of them. I think it makes it easier because I keep such good, and public, track of horses I start under saddle. Anyone can ask me to talk to so and so who owns so and so and find out where that horse is 6 months later.

Unfortunately, I have gotten too many horses through here who were "started" by people we both probably know.. and who were nowhere near even "somewhat" broke.

I personally don't "finish" horses. I set them up real good for what they are going to go on and do. And then they go on and they get finished. But the amount of money someone earns, or their desire to show, has nothing to do with how good of a start a trainer can put on a horse. But I think you're more leaning toward the show side of it. And I agree with you. But I am assuming MW is looking for a solid start on an average horse. Heck, I'm sending my own mare off for a few things I just can't get with her. So I call in reinforcements.



and badlands you know how I feel about you if I say more people will talk LOL.................Kevin :innocent::innocent:

Badlands, the only time I have seen a one rein stop it was very roughly applied. The one rein stops that Clinton Anderson does are another story. I don't always believe in pulling a horse in a very tight circle. Sometimes I do. But for every time that I have made a horse circle, and it worked, I have also tried to do it and it just seems to make things worse, especially on the trail, with other horses, etc...its not a quick fix by any means...at least not for me.

If I could do it and get Whip off the reins I'd be all for it, but I'm not the one to do that and if I asked JJ to do it Whip would be digging a hole to China....

There are dressage type circles and there are circles that make Ginger dance sideways...so its a mixed bag of tricks.

I don't circle horses in a one rein stop. They stop straight... I'm not really sure what you've seen. And I'm sorry for that. I have an idea of what you're talking about.

A "dressage" type circle can be 5 meters to 20... heck it could be 50 if you'd like. A balanced correct circle is a circle. Not a "type" of circle.

[Palogal]

Badlands, the only time I have seen a one rein stop it was very roughly applied. The one rein stops that Clinton Anderson does are another story. I don't always believe in pulling a horse in a very tight circle. Sometimes I do. But for every time that I have made a horse circle, and it worked, I have also tried to do it and it just seems to make things worse, especially on the trail, with other horses, etc...its not a quick fix by any means...at least not for me.

If I could do it and get Whip off the reins I'd be all for it, but I'm not the one to do that and if I asked JJ to do it Whip would be digging a hole to China....

There are dressage type circles and there are circles that make Ginger dance sideways...so its a mixed bag of tricks.


If she's dancing sideways she's not doing a circle, dressage or otherwise. Circles of different diameters are important to the horses' training and balance. I guess it depends on what you mean by tight. Dressage calls for 5 -10-15- and 20m circles but we school on many different sizes other than those. There is nothing different about dressage circles than any other circle. They are balanced figures.

[Reinmaker]

Every trainer has a trainer. And no one knows it all. Reining as a sport is new for me. So I have a trainer. And my trainer has a trainer. And a lot of friends who can give me pointers and help me. That doesn't make me someone not to send your horse to to be started, because I'm not a money earner (yet). I know many good trainers who really prefer to not show at all. For a long time, when dressage was my fortay, I refused to compete. It was too much stress for me. Really, I think whats most important, if someone is looking to get a horse started and ready to go off to finish as a -insert whatever here- then go see that trainer and ride the young horses they have in training at that moment. That's what's most important.


I prefaced my statement by saying, "as far as competing". There are some very good trainers who don't show who do an excellent job starting horses. The first trainer I worked for did not show much anymore when I started working for him. He had kind of been there and done that, and was taking a break. However, he knew the drill and he knew what it took to be successful and as some of his clients progressed and expressed a desire he started doing it again.

If one wants to compete though I think it is important to be with someone who has been there and done that. Someone who has the experience, not only with preparing the horses but the riders. As a competitor I need to be coached by someone who competes and understands what it takes to get a horse ready for the show pen and then just as important manage and maintain them. Maintaining a show horse in reining or cow horse is something that is learned over time. Knowing how hard to push your horse and when to school and set them up for bigger shows where you are going to ask them to give you more, and having them peak at the right time especially for aged events is an art.

So with that in mind I wouldn't send my horse to one person for starting and another for finishing. Why confuse things? Just send them to the person who is going to do a good job from start to finish. Personally I have started my own and then get help with the finishing, but if I was advising a friend I would advise them to find the best trainer they could find and the best way to do that without a solid referral is to go to some shows and observe and start from there. EDIT: Again this is for if you are going to compete at some point especially in a specialized discipline. I meant this in no way as a slight to you. I am sure you do an outstanding job starting horses. Just wanted to clarify that.

As for MW just needing a start I guess my original advice stands. Without having a great referral the best place to start is at the show grounds. Go to a breed show, or specific discipline show or even a local show and observe folks. I will say that as you start going to local shows the, how shall we say, "talent" of the trainers drops off dramatically in most cases. This is where a lot of yahoos ply their trade with their naive and unsuspecting clients. NOW that doesn't mean all of them there are yahoos. There are good trainers who still do local shows and 4-H stuff, just putting it out there that you have to be even more aware in that environment.

[Miracle Whip]

When she dances sideways it is when she is being a snot, and I am trying to pull her into a SMALL circle to make her behave. It doesn't always work. If the circle is small enough and we catch her off balance it does.
Then there are wider circles that are relaxing for her...and make her collect more. That is the type of circles we are working on right now.

The one rein stop I have seen involves pulling the horse into a circle, with one rein, hard, until he stops. Its not a cue, its almost a punishment instead, nothing calm about it at all. I've seen Clinton Anderson videos that show nicer stops, the horse circles at first but then figures out what its all about.

Whatever. On a side note, I think we got Whip to gait tonight. Our training pen at home is just plain too small.. with a larger arena and some walking work I think he did pretty dang good. Didn't change the bit either!!

[Miracle Whip]

Best trainer we had was actually referred to us by the professional Arabian trainer. I went to him several years ago, told him what I had and he was booked solid. He recommended a lady trainer that does a lot of Western Pleasure training and shows WP quite a bit. She did a wonderful job with Ginger.

The cowboy we hired was a last resort, he got both horses going well but I never was able to do much with Sabrina, despite the fact she was trained twice, bad genes maybe, who knows.