I learnt something last night - Bombproofing!

[Chavhorse]

My name is Lindy and I am a protective mother, there that is the confession out of the way.

As you know I took delivery of Nevada a 3.5 year old Dutch Warmblood x Appy 2.5 weeks ago. He was broken to saddle in May and we are now working on his ground manners, lunging, long reigning and next week my Dressage Tutor who has much experience of bringing youngsters on under saddle will start to ride him a couple of times a week.

My BO who is a wonderful matter of fact knowledgeable horsewoman whom I respect totally has been working with Vardi a few days a week lunging, long reigning and reinforcing the basics (like picking up his feet without him thinking that the human is there as a leaning post!)…..she was watching me last night laughing ……”Lindy why are you being so quiet and careful around him” I was at the time doing my version of putting on a rug quietly having spent 5 mins folding it into four, laying it across his hindquarters then unfolding it down the sides and up to the neck….”I don’t want to spook him and put him off rugs”….more laughing…..she then picked up my beautifully folded rug shook it out and threw it at his back, whereon it hit the deck……Vardi merely gave her a “are we playing that game again” look She then picked the rug up and proceeded to throw it every way over his back and up his neck……he took no notice at all merely looked bored. She then took a lunge whip and tickled every inch of his back, belly between his legs then gently tickled him between the ears…..nothing.

Her other piece of advice was when you go into the tack room and come back make noise, make sudden movements around him get him used to people who will not always be as careful as you……Bombproof him, at the moment he has never had a bad people experience use that! he realises that You, Marieke, and I won’t hurt him so use that trust to really make him 100% Bombproof…..Make it fun….(at this point she picked up his Jolly ball gently bounced it off every inch of his body then bounced it in front of him on the concrete he watched for a couple of times then leant over and caught it in his teeth he was then dropping it and catching it on the bounce.

I think the proof in this particular pudding was at one point one of the stable dogs came off worst in a dog cat standoff! The noise of screaming dog was horrendous Nevada who was still in his cross ties merely cocked an ear and carried on bouncing his ball.

As my Bo said the first few times she did the rug and lunge whip exercise Vardi was like “woooo scary!”…..but slow steady gentle perseverance on her part has paid off . I was hand walking him on Sunday and someone was shooting behind the school……nothing not even a blip I even questioned if he was deaf!


So after many years with horses this protective mother learnt something last night .....everyone wants a bombproof horse to get one someone somewhere has to teach the horse that nothing is scary and to do this you have to stop wrapping them in cotton wool and give them some experiences. …….So this is the Protective Mother trying hard to take that advice to heart.

[oursarge]

We always tease the barn owners daughter that she's the great desensitizer [sp] and by the time a horse leaves there it is used to everything. She makes sure of it. One horse was scared of plastic bags and I went in and they had bags tied to her saddle. She was scared at first but then got over it. We were calling her "The bag lady". Some people are horrified she'd put plastic bags on the horse but after 15 minutes or so she knew the bags wouldn't hurt her.

Nobody tiptoes around anything there. I knew my horse would be good for me when I saw them getting him ready to go to camp [He never did go my husband bought him before he went]. The horses have to be used to about everything so they were running up to them yelling "A HORSE" and hugging them and whipping umbrellas open with them and cracking whips, whipping plastic bags and feed bags around, going through puddles. My horse never batted an eye with all of that going on.

When a horse leaves there it has been used to everything including cars on a road, 4-wheelers, a bridge, clippers, blankets, trailering. Everything. I've learned alot from them since when I had my first boy I was afraid he'd get afraid. Now I know the more they experience the better they are. My mare was terrified of Louie the Llama. That was an experience, she almost threw my husband off when she saw Louie. She got used to Louie when he was in a stall across from her. I took her out one day and the Alpacas were blocking the way. I thought OH GREAT I'M GONNA DIE NOW but she walked right by them and didn't look back. If that was with my old horse rather than get him used to Louie I'd probably keep them apart now I know that they have to get used to everything there is to get used to. They still might spook but not as much.

I have my gelding home now with another who was not used to anything, he lived far from everything. He didn't even know what a deer was when he came here. My other boy who isn't bothered by much of anything has been a very good influence on the other since he sees Sarge isn't scared so he isn't scared. It's been a year and deer still do not thrill him but he's not jumpy like he used to be.

[Arrow]

Great post and thread idea! I don't do any real formal bombproofing, but I move around my horse in a normal manner and make normal noise, and that's how horses get used to LIFE. Tiptoeing around, don't scare the horse--that's what'll get you a sensitive horse, not the other way around, in most cases.

As a bit of a spinoff--Julie Goodnight writes that when training a lot of people focus so hard on not letting the horse make an error, that they don't realize that errors followed by a correction is how the horse actually learns!

[JetLagaside]

This really is a good post! It's so hard to get them used to things when they have never been exposed to stuff, I try to put as much stuff in front of my mare as I can - with the Oh just get over it attitude when something is scarry to her (time and patience and love fix all). I'm getting a reputation around the barn :eek: at least its the good kind - everyone wants to trail ride with me since she's now the laid back one LOL.

[TLC97]

YEAH!!!! Someone else who thinks like I do. I will admit that I am eeexxxtttrrreeemmmeeelllyyy sssslllloooowwww at introducing stuff to my guys, but I figure they need to be exposed to everything.

We were at a fair show once and a friend horse who was 19 and bombproof decided he was totally afraid of the pulling horses when they were hooked together. It was really funny, so she lead him up to them and hoped on and rode around behind them until he relaxed. Of course I had to ride with her for the buddy system, security thing. Point being is even when you think they are bomb proof there will always be something the think is the boogey man.

[Sundays Man]

Great post and kudos to your BO. I live with an over protective mom and get fussed at quite a bit for some of my antics around the herd. I have always said that if they are going to be around me, they need to get used to the way I am. If I make a quick movement (throwing a rock out of the paddock for example) they need to learn that I'm not trying to kill and eat them but save a stone bruise or something. I realize that quick movement from any one of a herd member will trigger a flight response, unless they know its just their stupid person:) who does it all the time. Besides, like you said, not everyone knows is quiet and moves in slow motion around horses.

[WashingtonBay]

I go back and forth on this one because of some of the very different horses I've had.

I think much of being 'bombproof' is nature, only some of it is 'nurture'.

It comes back to their basic personality how you should best approach 'bombproofing'.

If I tried to desensitize Bay to everything he's snorted at in life I think I would just make him nuts. In fact, Bay didn't really work out for one owner in his past, because of the man's loud and unpredictable nature. With him, Bay was 'on the muscle' all the time and would balk and pull back from this man even after he'd been there over a year and should have been used to the man's habits. But the man's habits didn't make any sense to Bay. The man never abused Bay, liked him a lot, as a matter of fact. But neither horse nor man learned to accept the other's temperament and work with it, they were always at odds, while I got along with the horse marvelously.

I understood him, I'd shown Arabs all through my youth, and I knew how they think. In the past I've described it as "It should not ever be me and the horse fighting about the thing, rather, he and I united against the thing." And for Bay, this is an important distinction. "I'm in charge, and I won't let that thing hurt you." If I confronted him with everything in life that he snorts at, he'd assume I was part of the plot and he wouldn't trust me. Instead with him, I approach things as his leader and protector, and if it's not important, I don't push it onto him. I could spend all of Bay's remaining days desensitizing him to plastic bags and he'd still view each new bag as a potential threat and me as his tormenter, not his friend. I'm sure of that. I prioritize. In turn, he views me as the one who protects him from that stuff, the silly and the bizarre. If I do make him confront it, it's because it's important and he's learned to trust that. I think it works for horses who are just high strung or highly 'thinking' all the time. Choose your battles.

I wrote an article over at the other site that spoke to this issue from the other side... Is our horse too sacked out? (http://forum.horse.com/tm.asp?m=355291)', about our other horse: (copied below) I gotta tell ya... as a long time Arab owner, our Mustang cross Cyn sometimes has me stumped.

She's unflappable. Literally. You cannot flap a thing at her that she will be afraid of. You might tick her off, but you will not scare her. Here's some old video we took that shows this as well as anything I could film today...

Video of bombproof Cyn... Bay in background - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Bay is pacing in the background in the video above. With me flapping a flag, that's about as close as he'd get. In the video below, we added a garbage bag and a sack full of aluminum cans. There's no sound on the video but it was also loud, and she just didn't care. I poked her with it, dragged it over her face, nothing.

Video of Flag and sack of cans. - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Now... as a horse for my husband to ride on trail, these are fantastic traits. If a bag blew across the trail between us, I don't have to worry about my husband and Cyn, which is good, because I'd have my hands full keeping Bay's feet on the ground. http://forum.horse.com/image/s4.gif Her curious and bold nature has it's funny moments... if we have a bucket of tools with us to work on fence, she'll tip it over and pull out everything in it. When we had a tarp out on the ground, she pawed it into a ball.

But I'll tell you why I think it's a pain in the butt. You can't get this horse out of your way. I can wave my hand and say "BOO!" to Bay, and he'll snort and retreat back. "Get out of here" "Shoo!" all of those are important things for horses to do when we're cleaning stalls, or working in the pasture.... "Back off" when I'm trying to get the gate open and they're standing anxiously behind me.

Cyn will not budge, will not get out of the way unless I actually have a whip with me and I hit her with it. She responds to pain. She does not respond to body language or 'feigned' threats. They might irritate her, but they do not intimidate her. I tell you, without a whip in my hand, I wouldn't want to try to flap her off, because she gets mad and I don't trust her. Yet, whack her once, and she snaps into shape. Same with leading issues. She'll try to push and pull you, but one good slap with the line, and she's docile as a lamb. We've joked that we should just catch her and smack her first thing... save ourselves the irritation of having to correct her later.

Is this just her nature, is she level and fearless by nature? Or is it possibly a result of her being a bottle fed orphan, perhaps a bit too socialized and acclimated to people? Maybe those who raised her spend a little too much time sacking out? I've handled a lot of horses, and never one like this.

Food for thought and discussion anyway... need more coffee :coffee:

[alittleoffkey]

That's how I've always handled all of mine - and a mentally a physically handicapped child hasn't made any of them so much as blink. They stand being poked in the nose and eyes by small kids and those with disabilities, and they put up with screaming kids without so much of a muscle twitch. I'm very proud of their unflappable personalities, but I know that was something sincerely thought about when they were bred, too.

I've had 3 of mine since they were born, so I know their personalities very intimately. I'm also realistic enough to know I couldn't do this to a typical arab. ;) Pinto (who I haven't had since birth) puts up with things from kids that she'd never put up with me doing (if I insisted on doing something obnoxious to her, she'd let me know it was obnoxious :p)... but Leggy and Dix could care less. They have an "Oh, she's just lost her mind again" attitude about most everything I do. I think if I started being quiet and gentle to mine all of a sudden they'd completely freak out. :D I work with abused horses completely differently - but in time they get the "crazy human" treatment as well. If you always treat your horse like they're breakable, then they'll expect everyone to treat them like that, and eventually they will become breakable.

[WashingtonBay]

If you always treat your horse like they're breakable, then they'll expect everyone to treat them like that, and eventually they will become breakable.And that's a real issue. I know the horse and in turn, would trust him anywhere, because I can predict him. But I can't loan him out. He'll die of old age having gone 100,000 miles in service, and still not be completely child or beginner safe to ride. But could he have been with different handling? Or is it just his nature? My jury is still out.

[Chavhorse]

WB I think you are totally correct and that a large percentage of this is nature, Vardi is by his very nature a very laid back horse and his reactions are not extreme (he was actually bought for this reason, for his age is is such a chilled little guy). I suppose part of my being "Careful and Quiet" is historically I have always had Throughbreds which would have taken a session of rug tossing as death approaching.

Equally important to me is that he knows his ground manners and respects my and any other humans space. He already knows back and move over....we are currently working on his mouthing issues! but 90% of that is teething.....BTW any suggestions for a teething 3.5 year old who just needs to gum on something all the time, the Jolly ball is taking serius punishment!)

But yes I do want him to be as "bombproof" as possible not only so I can enjoy trail rides on him but so my "cling on" DH can learn on a horse that I know (within reason no horse is ever 100%) is not going to go fruit loop underneath him. I have not much intention of draping him in Plastic bags and tin cans but will now stop treating him like a "Baby"

[WashingtonBay]

As with everything, balance, right? Desensitized to what we want them to ignore, 'sensitized' to those things we'd like them to respond to.

I think doing some 'bombproofing' and desensitizing is a really good exercise. Perhaps not so much to 'change' how they react to the unexpected, as much to learn 'how' they handle the unexpected, so that you can be prepared. No matter how much we desensitize them during our free time, to things we have at our disposal, the most important lesson to learn from all that, imho, is learning how the horse reacts to surprise, fear, force, annoyance and irritation. What are his base instincts? Because those are much slower to change and in a moment of surprise, that's what they revert to.

[AppyLover]

I hope I write this correctly (need more coffee). But How I have aproached working with Abby is as a partner and leader. I don't want her desensitized to everything, but also don't want her spooking at shadows.

We do a lot of "mountain" trails and believe it or not we do have mountain lions down here and there are "colorful" people around. I Trust Abby's responce to alert me to something questionable and I trust her to trust me for the final word on what to do. Ignore, fight, or run. There is a draw back to my aproach though, she is not a horse for beginners and she has pretty much become a "one-man" horse. She will fight other riders, she will challenge other people on the ground. But with me she may bounce around her stall but she doesn't invade my space until I let her in. She still will keep on my toes but for now is content with me in charge.

[Lakota's Pet]

I use mine as a police horse, so he gets subjected to anything and everything we can thing of that might spook him. Simply because of the people I deal with and the situations we encounter. Quite a bit of our work is PR, so we have peolpe and children around our animals a lot. If I can teach him that the balloon that just hit him in the head as the stroller with the crying baby went by isn't going to hurt him, I am going to. But I also believe that not every horse can handle those situations. My dad has a QH that is one of the best trail horses I have ridden in a long time, and thinks that being in a parade is going to kill him. So he is our trail horse now. My old QH that I lost this spring was unbelieve in crowds. Kids would hang off him, pet anything that had fur on it, and he wouldn't even bate an eye. Take him out on the trail and the nearest mud puddle grew teeth. My son's 8 yr old paint has turned nito quite the little horse. We got him neglected, and green broke, but not been handled much beyond that. Last month he took 8th place in the National Police Horse Competition in Kingston, Canada in the individual obstacle. It really takes a special horse to be "bombproof".

[WashingtonBay]

We do a lot of "mountain" trails and believe it or not we do have mountain lions down here and there are "colorful" people around. I Trust Abby's responce to alert me to something questionable and I trust her to trust me for the final word on what to do. Ignore, fight, or run.

This is really well put (so yes you had enough coffee :)), and that's how I approach it too. Our trails are very closed-in, heavily treed, and we often can't see far down them. Bay, ever alert and looking down trail, will sometimes stop in his tracks and look, long before I've heard anything. I've learned to trust his instincts, because plenty of times 30 seconds later a mountain bike has come around that blind corner moving fast, and Bay had stopped short enough to give both us and the bike room to see each other and respond. The same thing happened to our 'bombproof' horse Cyn once, as she was plodding along looking at the ground in front of her, and didn't know a bike was approaching till it came around a corner and nearly hit us. THEN she reacted.

Sometimes after a minute or two, Bay will go forward again, and I'll not see anything. But I don't think that necessarily means there was nothing there. We're in bear and cougar country too.

I do want an alert and 'thinking' trail horse. Not a blindly obedient one.

[WashingtonBay]

My dad has a QH that is one of the best trail horses I have ridden in a long time, and thinks that being in a parade is going to kill him. So he is our trail horse now.

This is particularly funny because Bay's an old endurance horse, thousands of miles on trail, and I'm told his former owner took him in a parade with his Backcountry Horseman's group. Bay didn't like the look of the float behind him :eek: and did practically the whole parade BACKWARDS. Heh...

My son's 8 yr old paint has turned nito quite the little horse. We got him neglected, and green broke, but not been handled much beyond that. Last month he took 8th place in the National Police Horse Competition in Kingston, Canada in the individual obstacle. It really takes a special horse to be "bombproof".Agreed :)

[AppyLover]

It really takes a special horse to be "bombproof".

And just as a police horse, it also takes a special horse for level headed trail riding. I think it really does come down to personality. Some horses make awsome police mounts and some are just meant for the mountains.

[jeezitsjacki]

this is a really neat thread. WB cyn reminds me of ben. Once my friend had a plastic ziplock bag and was walking down the barn isle with it. She held it up to about 5 horses or so including her arab/qh and they all snorted and retreated to the back of their stall. I told her to go try to scare ben.. she flapped it at him and made all kinds of scary noises and he tried to eat it, not scared in the least bit.

I dont really do desensitizing things, mostly because Ben was not very spooky in the first place. He was skiddish in the arena when horses not too close, but with lots of practice with horses going by, he is fine now.

I really think that the best way to desensitize is just by going through everyday things with them, and they will get used to it. I dont really do any special training

[JetLagaside]

As with everything, balance, right? Desensitized to what we want them to ignore, 'sensitized' to those things we'd like them to respond to.


I think you and others have hit the nail on the head.
I can do a lot of things to my mare tarps come to mind she could care less oh yeah - over done - lunge whip if you just play with it she's all over you but on the flip side she reads my body language and knows when it's time to get down to business and out of my space LOL there really is a happy balance in there some place and I also agree with some is just plain in their nature. She will still tell me that rock is right over there adn it just might jump up and get her on some days when she's feeling a little to good LOL

[WashingtonBay]

See, I think half of being an Arab is snorting and prancing just because they think they look cool doing it.

I think much of it is just for show. :D

Something else for discussion: I don't desensitize to whips. I mean... I want them to be controllable when I have one, but I don't drape and sweep it over the horse to get them to accept that. If I move the whip or touch them with it, it means move. All the time. :)

[Lakota's Pet]

We desensitize to whips to an extent. They know that when it moves or touches a shoulder or haunches it means to move. But we try to teach that it can touch anywhere and the don't have to be afraid of it though. But I agree there are certain things that they should not be desensitized to. Our horses ended up being jacks of all trades. They are our trail horses, performance horses if we decide, and our police mounts. Rocky was unflappable in public, but was very sensitve on the trail. Got us out of trouble a few times like that and I wouldn't have had him any other way. Somedays I really miss him.

[jeezitsjacki]

I dont desensitize to whips either. ben isnt terrified of them, but he will respect my space when I have one. The only time he gets kinda freaked out by whips is when someone riding next to us is using a dressage whip on their horse.. he doesnt like that, probably from a past experiance.

but when I am lunging him he will most definately keep his space, then the second I start to put the whip away he turns into the center and comes to love on me. So he definately respects it, but isnt terrified of it, which I view as a positive thing

[Chavhorse]

WB nail on the head Balance in all things.....I certainly don't want him to plod along oblivious to everything but I also do not want the holy heck run away response with every rustle in a bush he hears.

The sensible approach is to subject him to normal everyday things for instance tonight we went out for a hand walk and the horse lorry was parked in the drive way so we walked up to it sniffed it, licked it then calmly walked on by and back again.

Vardi will primarily be a trail horse (it is my first love) and in 2 years will be relocating with us to Cyprus where there is much more open space and scary sheep so I want to subject him to as much normal stuff as I can before then.

My old Cyprus TB was a fantastic trail horse, he too used to stop and look at things giving you that all important reaction time (silent mountain bikes were a particular nuisance) but he didn't turn a hair at traffic, dogs farm machinery and was fully accepting of one of the rides which took us on a path at the back of the gun club...calmly used to canter that path with people shooting clays yards away, but show him a sofa abandoned in the hedge and you had a major spook but it was a controllable spook as one of the other posters said....learn their base reactions as that is what they will revert to in an emergency, Marti would spook but never ever turn and run, once you knew that you could deal with it.

I think it also has a lot to do with the rider, my reaction to Marti's excesses was a cool "oh really scary you muppet" his previous owner used to freeze and panic and the situation escalated.

Thanks for the feedback everyone……this is the first youngster I have had, the responsibility is huge I want to get this totally right as if it goes wrong I will only have myself to blame…..hence my gently gently he is only a baby approach….he is a baby but can obviously cope with far more than I had given him credit for.

Tomorrow Marieke will ride Vardi for the first time since he has been with us........I will report back and I have a day off on Monday so I will get lots of pics and bore you all to death.

[WashingtonBay]

I think it also has a lot to do with the rider, my reaction to Marti's excesses was a cool "oh really scary you muppet" his previous owner used to freeze and panic and the situation escalated.

LOL - I chuckle and joke at Bay too to de-escalate him. "This is nothing that should frighten an old A-Rab horse!" To which my hubby always replies "But lots of things frighten your old A-Rab horse!"


Tomorrow Marieke will ride Vardi for the first time since he has been with us........I will report back and I have a day off on Monday so I will get lots of pics and bore you all to death.

I look forward to your pictures! :)

[Lakota's Pet]

Please feel free to bore us! There are a bunch of experienced people here with a ton of information to share. I know I have learned wuite a bit already, just asking a couple questions.

[IrisGreen]

WBay, You Husbands horse sounds like Muffin. I think I desensitized him a little too much and I was worried that I wouldn't be able to get him to back or get away if I really needed him too with out a whip in my hand. He is just not scared of people or weird objects.

That's why I started the routine of making him back for food and stand there until I said it was OK for him to eat. I make him back away from the gates before I enter and if he gets in my space I make him back out of it all with out a halter on him.

I am so glad that I instilled in him a respect for when I tell him to back he had better do it with just a cue. He doesn't like to get in trouble and when I get bold, stand tall and mean it he pays attention, backs and waits calmly.

I don't know what I would do if I didn't teach him that and demand respect from him. He doesn't scare if you flap your arms or jump around to get him to go away or to not walk up. But, he will listen to a firm "ho" and "stand". He knows I demand he listen to voice commands with out me having to reinforce them because if I have to reinforce the voice command he is in trouble and he hates being in trouble.

He is the biggest pain when you are trying to fix the fence, muck out his pen or anything around him with out him being tied. He is right there in the middle of it taking your tools (like your horse does), tipping over carts, chewing on rakes. I even bumped him with a rake in the chest to get him to back up and leave me alone and he didn't budge just stood there with me bumping the rake in to his chest. I guess He just figured it was another one of my "stand there and don't be spooked by this object" sessions. I had to put down the rake and demand he back up with my voice and his hand cue and I was serous so he backed up and realized what I wanted and left me alone.

He can be a pain because he is just not easy to get rid of in normal ways that others horses would be, a fast gesture of the arm and a "get" would send most horses away. He will just back up a few steps and keep watching what you are doing and want to sneak up and check it out and hope you don't notice he is sneaking up to see what you have.

He acts like a dog more then a horse and hates being left out of what you are doing so he will try to sneak back up with out you noticing. Just not the typical spooky horse personality that I was used to hearing about before I got a horse. lol

[WashingtonBay]

There's times that horses like that are a real blessing, and times that they are a PITA! :D