Hay replacers & the metabolic horse

[walkinthewalk]

There seems to be a lot of interest on this board regarding how to care for a horse that is Cushings, IR/EMS, all of which are metabolic issues.

Acquiring the right type of hay for these horses can be difficult but there are alternative forages known as "Hay Replacers".

In all honesty, I am not up-to-speed on hay replacers because I am very fortunate to not have to feed them.

But starting on a thread about hay replacers will hopefully encourage folks who have used them to talk about whose brand they use, the type, and the success they have had with it. Especially if they have a metabolic horse:)

The following link talks about metabolic issues such as:

1. What happens to a horse if IR/EMS or Cushings go un-managed.
2. Mineral deficiencies and how an overload of iron can negatively affect some of those deficiencies.

3. Why it is important to learn how to manage NSC's (non-structural carbohydrates), a/k/a bad carbs.

4. All of that segway's into hay replacers and Ontario Dehy, a company in Canada that produces hay replacers geared toward metabolic horses; and does that in a co-ordinated effort with Dr. Eleanor Kellon, who spear-headed the Yahoo Equine Cushing's Group.

http://www.harleywood.ca/Equine_Cushings.htm

Further to what I hope will be a lively and informative hay replacer thread, I am providing comments from my good friend and owner of my local horse message board.

She owns a 20 yo Paso Fino. Like Duke and I, they have been life-long trail buds.

She was as devasted as I was last year when we BOTH discovered our horses had metabolic issues. We live 92 miles apart, so grass, hay, terrain, and feed are very different.

The Paso Fino's issues are different than my Tennessee Walker's in that the Paso Fino wants to grow that long hair but has no hoof or arthritis issues. My Walker, on the other hand, isn't inclined to want to grow the shaggy hair, but he is laminitic and his arthritis exploded.

Both metabolic but we have stabilized both of them utilizing two completely different sets of diets. The word "metabolism" being the operative:cowboy:

I played 20 questions with Phyllis today and gave her the link to this board so she can read how I copied her replies to me:whistle:

I asked:
"What is your opinion of the Safe Starch Forage as it applied to Denny?

What is Denny's current regimen and are you satisfied with it?

How are his hooves compared to a year ago when we first started treating him and Duke for metabolic issues?

I know you've been riding him a little - is he barefoot on the front or with shoes? Is he at all ouchy when you ride? "

Phyllis replied:
"He and the mare done really well on the TCSSF (Triple Crown Safe Starch Forage), they loved it and cleaned up every bit of it. I quit feeding it though when I went to the WellSolve L/S and only give him the alfalfa/timothy cubes in his feed, but only a 2 cup measure full twice a day.

I don't know about any other hay replacers, I feed the hay I get from Jr., it is just a grass mix hay and first cutting, but as to sugar/ESC I couldn't tell you that as I have never had it tested.

He is barefoot on the back and he is doing great. I am pulling his front shoes next week and not going to reshoe him at all after that, he will remain barefoot. I won't be able to say anything for sure on his being barefoot all the way around til next year. I do have some of the old Easy boots though that I bought a few years ago that fit him.

As to his feeding, he gets an 8 ounce bowl of WS/LS twice a day, a cup of BOSS twice a day, a 2 cup measure of timothy/alfalfa cubes twice a day. Mornings I add the 1/8 of cup of chastetree berry which I grind up fresh each morning, he gets about a half cup of the Omega Horse shine and the Mag. Ox, that is the only time I feed him that. So far he is doing great, not ouchy and his attitude is great."

This is still not a lot of information, but the thread needs to start somewhere. If you have a horse on hay replacer, metabolic or not, please post your thoughts on its success or the lack of same:)

[FrogInABlender]

My 20 yr old IR horse LOVES the TCSS Forage! He gets about 4 pounds of that a day along with some Farrier's Formula and 6 or 8 pounds of 9% NSC Bermuda hay a day and is doing great. The Triple Crown Safe Starch was the only low NSC feed available in my area at the time so that's why I went with that. I've wondered about the Wellsolve, but since it's relatively new and my old boy is still doing well on the TCSS, I figured that since it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'll be interested to watch this thread and see what everybody else is doing though.

[Gypsy Rose]

Right now, Gypsy is still able to be on grass and hay- as of yet, there has been no testing or proof that she's IR. However, I try to feed her the closest I can to an IR diet that is available to me, and that I can afford-always a sticky point, lol!

She has never had alfalfa hay in her life, she's always had what has been considered very good quality grass hay.

This year, however, the hay quality wasn't as nice, and it did get a light rain on it. Whether that actuallylowers the fructan content of the hay is still up in the air, I believe.

She gets about 2 cups dry measure per day of soaked shredded beet pulp, mainly for her supplements, though it could be increased and used as part of her roughage source if need be.

Someday, I will have to make the decision of what to feed for alternative forage, as eventually, she'll lose the ability to chew her hay effectively.

My concern would be finding her a good forage source to supplement the beet pulp.

The Purina Wellsolve feeds were mentioned. In the next post, I will put up the guaranteed analysis on these feeds, and the information I have about them.

[Gypsy Rose]

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm127/noblegypsyrose/Feed%20Labels/FeedLabels-1-1.jpg

[Gypsy Rose]

Triple Crown Safe Starch:

http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/images/safestarchTitle.gif
http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/images/safestarchbag.jpg Crude Protein (min.) 11.00%Lysine (min.) 0.20%Methionine & Cystine (min.) 0.10%Threonine (min.) 0.10%Crude Fat (min.) 6.00%Crude Fiber (max.) 28.00%Calcium (min.) 0.60%Calcium (max.) 1.00%Phosphorus (min.) 0.40%Magnesium (min.) 0.50%Potassium (min.) 2.00%Copper (min.) 35.00 ppmSelenium (min.) 0.30 ppmZinc (min.) 120.00 ppmIron (min.) 180.00 ppmManganese (min.) 120.00 ppmVitamin A (min.) 4,000 IU/lbVitamin D (min.) 1,000 IU/lbVitamin E (min.) 110 IU/lbBiotin (min.) 0.15 mg/lbVitamin C (min.) 30.00 mg/lbLactobacillus Acidophilus Bacteria (min.) 1.12 million CFU/gmSaccharomyces Cerevisiae (min.) 2.24 million CFU/gmCellulase (min.) 95 CMC–ase units/lbProtease (min.) 0.40 Northrup Units/lb

Now we can compare these. If need be, I can pull the Wellsolve from the Purina site- we could probably read it better. I just wanted to show that there are 2 Wellsolve feeds that are a little bit different from each other, though both have enough roughage to be used as forage replacers. The question would be which of these is the best option, and if Purina was your only choice- discounting the name of the two feeds, which of those two would actually be better.

Purina is the only thing I would be able to get around here, lol.

[walkinthewalk]

GypsyRose, I am so glad you posted the WellSolve guaranteed analysis tags for both the L/S and the W/C, since Froginablender commented about not being familiar with WellSolve.

Froginablender, you're right, "if it works don't fix it".

I am no longer able to get Equi-Jewel pelleted rice bran and the man on the other end of the phone at Producer Feeds was not at all nice.

Our Purina store had just gotten in the WellSolve so I thought I would try it after all the hype on their website and on RFD-TV.

300# later, I went back to the other feed store and am now buying that nasty man from Producer Feeds pelleted rice bran because:

1. Iron first and foremost in WellSolve. Iron is not listed on the guaranteed analysis nor in the "Ingedients" below:eek:

Too much iron can prohibit absorption of copper & zinc in IR horses.

It is my understanding that someone on the equine cushings group has the credentials to do an analysis on grain, so she did one on WellSolve.

The iron analysis reportedly was 886 ppm. Evidently someone else on the list saw that 886 ppm and called Purina. She was told that Purina adds 250 ppm to the mix and the rest of the ppm number was the amount that is already in the ingredients in the feed.

If that 886 ppm was true and correct, that means the product contains more than 3 times the acceptable amount - more or less since it's not list in the guaranteed section of the tag.

2. I noticed Duke's neck getting really hard again - like it does in the spring; that didn't happen last fall and the only part of his feeding regimen that changed was the WellSolve had been added and the rice bran deleted.

2.1 Duke has been back on his regular vitamin/mineral supplement and the stabilized, calcium fortified pelleted rice bran for about 10 days and the hardness in his neck has reduced.

3. Everyone eats what Duke eats as a metabolic diet can't hurt anyone. Everyone seemed to get a little sassier attitude, but then again, the weather cooled down a lot, so I'm not sure on that one.

GypsyRose, I notice the Triple Crown does show a guarantee of 120 ppm Iron on their tag. A little less than half of what Purina allegedly stated they put in. The conservative 120 ppm makes more sense to me because there is iron in hay and in the pastures to factor in.

That is just my WellSolve story. Given the incident with Duke's neck and the fact that, after Purina's "years of research for these special needs horses", they don't show the very important iron content on their tag, I took my full bag back, wrote down why in the hopes the Purina Rep will get it, and got my $27.99 + tax back. Yes my local store is proud of that WellSolve:mad:

I do have the link to the thread where I read this information if anyone is interested.

[Gypsy Rose]

Definitely interested, and in light of all this, I will be adding something to this myself- probably tomorrow, unless I get time tonight, lol!

[Gypsy Rose]

A few weeks ago, I went to a clinic hosted by our area Co-op Country Store.

The guest speakers were our area Purina Feeds rep, and our local eqine veterinarian.

The topics were: horses with special needs, Cushing's Disease, Laminitis, and an introduction to the Wellsolve horse feed line.

I also got a good taste of what I've heard many times about veterinarians and feed reps having only basic levels of nutrition knowledge! I also became acutely aware of how many people in my area are clueless about feeding and the health issues that were discussed, and how reluctant they are to ask questions regarding their feeding programs!

I have to give the vet credit- he was very open to researching and learning new things- especially when I got him confused while discussing pre and probiotics! I brought up a question about digestive enzymes, and he thought I was talking probiotics, until I clarified, lol! Methinks he's going to be doing further research on the subject!http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/horse-forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

On to the feed rep- the main focus of this thread! He talked about all the basic Purina feeds, then went on to discuss the Wellsolve line.

He pretty much glossed over the Enrich 32 and 12, until I opened my mouth and asked him to explain to those who may not be familiar, what a RB was.

Things got a little more interesting when we started discussing winter feeding. That's when the vet, Dr. Gib, decided to front the rep with a health question. It went something like this (you're all gonna love this one! Warning- make sure there's nothing in your mouth before you read past this point!):

Dr. Gib: Have a question for you, Matt. (the rep) I've been seeing a major increase in the incidence of choke over the last 2 weeks- 6 cases, in fact. All are feeding the some type of processed feed(i.e. sweet, pelleted or complete.) Could there be any correlation between the feed and the incidence of choke- no client has changed their feeding regimen. At least one of the horses has developed pneumonia as a result of the choke.

Matt: Well, that's a possibility- you see, the manufacturers change the amount of moisture of the feed for the winter.

(Wha????????!!!!!!!!)

Dr. Gib: Could you give us an explanation of why?

Matt: I really don't know. and I've never heard of higher incidences of choke this time of year.

Dr. Gib: Well, I'm seeing it, so something has to be causing it, and I would assume from what you're telling me, the lower moisture content could be a real possibility.

Matt: I really couldn't tell you.

Dr. Gib more or less shakes his head and gives up- end of conversation.

Good grief! Scary when you think of what the companies WON'T tell you!

I'm assuming the theory is the feed will flow more easily in the winter- but that should only apply to the sweet feeds!

Another thing to remember is to be careful where your source of info is coming from, whether it be the source, or the date the info was given.

I think we were talking about laminitis research at the time- Matt was talking about feeding for laminitic horses, and the causes of laminitis.

I wish I could remember exactly what he said, but Dr. Gib more or less fronted him on the info.

I quote Dr. Gib: "Matt, what you're talking about is info that was given out more than a year ago! There has been new research done since then."

Dr. Gib then went on to explain the new studies done on laminitis- at least some of the better known ones regarding feeding of the laminitic horse.

To sum it up, I didn't learn a doggone thing that I didn't already know, and in some areas, I knew more than the speakers did!

Hopefully, next spring's clinic will be more informative. The coordinater- one of the Country Store employees, was already discussing ideas with me that night, lol!

You may ask why I posted this, and what it has to do with hay replacements?

The simple fact that we need to be able to do our research ourselves, and draw informed conclusions from all the information gathered. Information is changing about feeding the metabolic horse almost as fast as we absorb what's out there, lol!

As walkinthewalk has stated, it's easy to get caught up in all the latest hype without knowing if it's really right for our horse.

Not to mention, if you're not feeding a fixed formula, you may be playing Russian Roulette with your horse's safety, lol! A hay replacement will be the major bulk of your horse's diet, if feeding hay is not an option.

[walkinthewalk]

GypsyRose, at least your vet gave a valiant effort.

It seems to me people that are supposed to have the answers are all reading from a script these days; when we, the public, ask anything outside their script, they can't answer. I have told "techs" on the other end of the phone to stop reading from their script and give me an "straight-up" answer. Generally I get hung up on, have to call back and report their bee-hinds, at which point I finally get someone that actually knows something - lol lol lol

I grow weary of asking questions that either skillfully don't get answered, or they say "I'll get back to you" and they don't.

That's part of why I think these threads are so important.

There's already a lot of information to digest. It can be overwhelming to the most organized of brains. I hope folks will just keep asking questions and say "I'm not sure what you just said, say it again in a different way" :cowboy:

[Gypsy Rose]

Here is the link that walkinthewalk was referring to, showing the iron content that Wellsolve does not include on their guaranteed analysis:

http://gaitedhorsesenseonline.com/fo...tmode=1#M96472 (http://gaitedhorsesenseonline.com/fo...tmode=1#M96472)


I found it very interesting. Besides the fact that the iron content isn't even listed in the Wellsolve's guaranteed analysis, there are a few other discrepencies to the amounts of some of the other ingredients as well.

This greatly emphasizes the point that it's very important for us to do our research and ask questions, rather than relying on the companies' word and even their guaranteed analysis, that the feed they are trying to sell us is what's best for our horses.