Something to Think About

[magayle]

No matter your political persuasion, it is interesting to think about race as a factor that we don't even notice until it is put this way. Check it out and read on...

I hope you read enough to get to the educational section at the end. This is the remarkable part beyond the interesting-to-think-about-part.

Folks, Something to think about...What if things were turned around? Think about it. Would the country's collective point of view be different? Could racism be the culprit?

· What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, following the debate, including a three month-old infant and an unwed, pregnant teenage
daughter?



· What if John McCain was a former president of the Harvard Law Review?



· What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his college graduating class?



· What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was a divorcee?



· What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair while he was still married?



· What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to pain killers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization?



· What if Cindy McCain graduated from Harvard?



· What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five? (The Keating Five were five United States Senators accused of corruption in 1989, igniting a major political scandal as part of the larger Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s and early 1990s.)

· What if Obama couldn't read from a teleprompter?



· What if Obama was the one who had military experience that included discipline problems and a record of crashing seven planes?



· What if Obama was the one who was known to publicly display a serious anger management problem?



· What if Michelle Obama's family had made their money from beer distribution?



You could easily add to this list. If these questions reflected a reality, if the tables were turned, do you really believe the election numbers would be as close as they are?

This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative characteristics in another when there is a color difference.

And consider the candidates' educational backgrounds:

Barack Obama:
Columbia University - B.A. Political Science with a Specialization in International Relations.
Harvard - Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude

Joseph Biden:
University of Delaware - B.A. in History and B.A. in Political Science.
Syracuse University College of Law - Juris Doctor (J.D.)

John McCain:
United States Naval Academy - Class rank: 894 of 899

Sarah Palin: Hawaii Pacific University - 1 semester
North Idaho College - 2 semesters - general study
University of Idaho - 2 semesters - journalism
Matanuska-Susitna College - 1 semester
University of Idaho - 3 semesters - B.A. in Journalism (Sports Broadcasting)

Education isn't everything, but this is about the two highest offices in the land as well as our standing throughout the world.

[WashingtonBay]

Personally, I'm so beyond race as an issue, I really resent the implication that if we don't like Obama we must be racist. How am I supposed to answer that? Denial? Strong denial? It's pre-supposing a negative, like "When did I stop being a racist".

I'm not voting for him because he's a liberal and I'm a conservative.

I'm not voting for him because he can't even say the word victory in Iraq, nor do I think he has the stomach to make and stick to any hard decisions that might be criticized by a fickle and short-sighted public. I'm afraid if faced with a challenge, he'll do or say anything to avoid having to risk sending troops to our defense, which is every bit as dangerous as one who sends them too quickly. I believe these things because I think it's his ideology, not his race, that is weak.

Say one thing about Republicans if you will... But who is it who gave arguably the highest cabinet post there is to African Americans, not once but twice. We get absolutely no credit on the subject of race, and yet, we seem to be further beyond it than some, including Obama, who think minorities need to be given more help and welfare, instead of more opportunity and responsibility. There is an arrogant form of institutional, paternal racism among liberals that is every bit as damaging as any 'overt' racism ever was.

And trying to guilt people into thinking they're racist if they don't like him is part of that.


My two cents. :)

[Tatesgram]

:cheers:Haven't heard it put better WB! Kathleen Parker had a similar article in Townhall today, accusing Republicans of being racist.

[SedonaThunder]

ALL politics aside... yes, Magayle - I do see the point. I myself must have some "racism" in me as I found myself really reacting to some of those "what ifs". And I do truly believe that if all those "what ifs" were true of the Obama's, they wouldn't have made it this far.

[JackieB]

I'm sorry you were offended WB, Tatesgram. WB, I especially think that you are honest, and fair to a fault. You too I suppose, Tatesgram, I just don't know you as well.

But please appreciate that there is a lot of truth in what magayle posted. Really. There is. If anyone is willing to be completely honest about it, he/she would almost certainly admit.

[WashingtonBay]

Let me ask this.... to give people something to think about:

Why is it supposed to impress us so much and turn our beliefs on their head that Obama went to Harvard and got good grades? Is there some other presumption I'm supposed to have?

Why is it that liberal unwed or working mothers are popular liberal causes if they need welfare or fair treatment they are obviously not able to fight for themselves, and conservative unwed or working mothers are attacked for living the life they're given the way they want to? Do they really respect the women and their rights? Or do they just think women need them?

[SedonaThunder]

Why is it supposed to impress us so much and turn our beliefs on their head that Obama went to Harvard and got good grades? Is there some other presumption I'm supposed to have?
My thought was that it doesn't impress us - it's expected. However, if he were at the bottom of his class we'd be appalled.

Why is it that liberal unwed or working mothers are popular liberal causes if they need welfare or fair treatment they are obviously not able to fight for themselves, and conservative unwed or working mothers are attacked for living the life they're given the way they want to? Do they really respect the women and their rights? Or do they just think women need them?
Call me stupid... I don't understand the question, can you give me examples again?:)

[menagerie]

.....Why is it that liberal unwed or working mothers are popular liberal causes if they need welfare or fair treatment they are obviously not able to fight for themselves, and conservative unwed or working mothers are attacked for living the life they're given the way they want to? Do they really respect the women and their rights? Or do they just think women need them?

My personal opinion here is that they don't 'just think women need them' but that they know that these are women they can exploit for their own agenda. And as far as I'm concerned I think that goes for anyone they can exploit for their agenda. Too bad they don't reeeeaaalllly truly care about these people.

As for racism... well maybe if we quit touting it in every single situation that comes about it may actually be able to be laid to rest. Sure your always going to have others that find a reason to hate, dislike, persecute, etc. someone else because of their own issues in their own heart but you can't force those people to do otherwise. One thing you can do is quit enabling people to continue to live in bondage and start living their lives irregardless of what someone else thinks about them.

Oh and for the record I'm not voting for Obama and its nothing to do with his education OR his race. :cowboy:

[vicklynn]

Im with WB on this.
I am so not racist. When I became that way, I was born in a mixed world, my best friend Vicky in elementary was,,,,,,shhhh, black. Oh and my son is black, but thats another story. I so love him.
But shhhh, dont tell him hes black, he has no clue, he is my son, not a color, and thats what he was brought up believing.

[WashingtonBay]

My thought was that it doesn't impress us - it's expected. However, if he were at the bottom of his class we'd be appalled.

Not necessarily appalled. W. Bush went to Yale, and got perfectly mediocre grades.

In my mind, it's hard enough to even get in to Yale and Harvard, that graduating at the bottom of the class still beats out a lot of other people.

Which brings me to the Naval Academy. That's a pretty elite place to even get into. I wouldn't scoff at number 899 either. In fact, if I was him, I'd probably hang it on my wall. - The worst of the best, lol.




Call me stupid... I don't understand the question, can you give me examples again?:)

OK - I had a really hard time trying to phrase that and it's clumsy. How about this... Let's turn it on it's head.

Can you imagine a conservative DARING to criticize a female Democratic candidate for having a baby? Or an unwed teenage daughter who got pregnant? Whispering about the demands of the job taking her away from her responsibilities at home, gossiping about the potential parenthood of the child? Where would NOW be? Where would all the feminists be? -those who have fought so hard for the rights of women?


BTW... The president of NOW endorsed Palin. Personally, not on behalf of the organization.... Said she embodies all that feminists have fought for all these years. Her constituents are outraged. Why?

[SedonaThunder]

... he is my son, not a color, and thats what he was brought up believing.
This is very, very nice - I wish everyone could be this way.:)

[WashingtonBay]

My personal opinion here is that they don't 'just think women need them' but that they know that these are women they can exploit for their own agenda. And as far as I'm concerned I think that goes for anyone they can exploit for their agenda. Too bad they don't reeeeaaalllly truly care about these people.

Exactly! You see through it to the punch line. They think women and minorities NEED them, and they get really mad at those who DON'T.

[menagerie]

Yea WB too bad more people don't see thru it. Our freedoms are being taken and jeapordized all because we have been lulled into a state of complacency where we think freedom is having someone else take care of everything for us. Whoaaa to us when the powers that be get their wish and we wake up to reality!

[JackieB]

They think women and minorities NEED them, and they get really mad at those who DON'T.

Well it's certainly true that women and minorities have really needed government assistance, at least in the form of laws guaranteeing equal rights, over the years.

These issues will eventually be relegated only to history books, I believe, but they endured as an unfortunate reality in our country for hundreds of years. So, it's going to take some decades for them to pass fully into history - thank goodness.

[WashingtonBay]

The trouble is, Jackie, that many will fight tooth and nail to ensure women and minorities continue to think they NEED the Democrats.

Do you really think the Democrats want to cease being necessary to huge blocks of people? Do you really think anyone in welfare and social services would really want to succeed their way out of their jobs? I'm in that business, remember, I know. ;)

[menagerie]

Amen WB! Too bad the world can't truly do whats best for their fellow man/woman without letting personal reasons get in the way.

[Tatesgram]

he is my son, not a color, and thats what he was brought up believing.

Bless you Vicklynn. Now, could you teach a few million other people to look at others this way? :)

[JackieB]

The trouble is, Jackie, that many will fight tooth and nail to ensure women and minorities continue to think they NEED the Democrats.

Do you really think the Democrats want to cease being necessary to huge blocks of people? Do you really think anyone in welfare and social services would really want to succeed their way out of their jobs? I'm in that business, remember, I know. ;)

I understand WB. You do come from a position of credibility since you work in this area. But I'm sure you would agree that not everyone fits these stereotypes. You're an example of that as a strong conservative working in the field.

I have heard Barack Obama speak directly of the need for people to take more responsibility for their own lives. He is certainly an example, having been raised by a single mom and hardworking Kansas grandparents who appear to have instilled these values in him. I feel that I see those values in him, but others, even on this forum, appear to see a complete socialist. In fact, I just saw a TV commercial at lunchtime trying to connect Obama to a Che Guevera poster up on a wall in some campaign office somewhere. Give me a break. I've seen that guy on t-shirts all over the place.

It appears to me that both the Democrats and Republicans want to be necessary to huge blocks of people. Certainly, it sounds to me like I hear the Republicans telling me that if I want to be protected from terrorists, have the right to pray when and where I wish, etc., that I darn well better stick with them because the alternative is unthinkable.

For example, by far, Americans of all political idealogies support the Second Amendment. But I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Don't kid yourself. This is just the first step toward taking away all of our guns." I've heard that fairly ranted to me as a stern admonishment for going on 30 years now. That sounds to me like "You need us if you want to keep your guns."

[WashingtonBay]

Point taken to a degree on the WOT. I do think we try to remind and convince people that Republicans are better on a strong defense, and in that regard, keep that block of people who care about that thinking they wouldn't be just fine with a democrat.

But the second ammendment one.... nawww.... the comparison doesn't work. At the heart of the RTKBA, is ultimate defense against a tyrannical government. A government that seeks LESS control over it's people and their guns is inherently more trustworthy (to me) than one who wants me to need them. :D


On edit... put another way: You're right on the WOT because we do rely on government to provide that security for us. But at the heart of the right to keep and bear arms is self-reliance and freedom FROM government, not dependence on it.

[Tiz]

It's about power. Dependant voters keep people who give them things in power. It's simple.

[Aina]

I'm pretty sure there are a few logical fallacies there somewhere.

First of all being around a university campus my entire life I have to say that I don't give a crap about your level of education or what you have been the head of. My dad is probably one of the most well know people in the Marketing world. He has published numerous times in the top journals and has more education than most people ever dream of. He was also the Executive Director of the largest consumer research association in the world. But does that really give him experience for the presidency? Actually, it probably gives him more experience then the President of the Harvard review now that I think about it...

Secondly, I don't give crap about race either. I wasn't raised where race was an issue and so now I don't even understand it. It must have been something people learned in public school that I missed along with the rest of the great socialization they get there... Really, try explaining race to a blind person. That is me. I didn't know it still existed until a kid had to come be homeschooled because some other blacks at school beat him up for not being "black" enough. People are just people. Some good, some not so good.

What I do give a crap about is economics. Obama's economic policy stinks.

[Diane of Buck's Hollow]

Personally, I'm so beyond race as an issue, I really resent the implication that if we don't like Obama we must be racist. How am I supposed to answer that? Denial? Strong denial? It's pre-supposing a negative, like "When did I stop being a racist".

I'm not voting for him because he's a liberal and I'm a conservative.

I'm not voting for him because he can't even say the word victory in Iraq, nor do I think he has the stomach to make and stick to any hard decisions that might be criticized by a fickle and short-sighted public. I'm afraid if faced with a challenge, he'll do or say anything to avoid having to risk sending troops to our defense, which is every bit as dangerous as one who sends them too quickly. I believe these things because I think it's his ideology, not his race, that is weak.

Say one thing about Republicans if you will... But who is it who gave arguably the highest cabinet post there is to African Americans, not once but twice. We get absolutely no credit on the subject of race, and yet, we seem to be further beyond it than some, including Obama, who think minorities need to be given more help and welfare, instead of more opportunity and responsibility. There is an arrogant form of institutional, paternal racism among liberals that is every bit as damaging as any 'overt' racism ever was.

And trying to guilt people into thinking they're racist if they don't like him is part of that.


My two cents. :)

What she said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JackieB]

I wasn't raised where race was an issue and so now I don't even understand it.

That's a wonderful thing. Your parents are certainly to be commended for raising you in a way that should be the case for everyone.

It wasn't the same for me. Not too much in my own family because my mom wouldn't tolerate it, but definitely on my dad's side of the family and in the families of others in my community. I can remember visiting relatives out of state when I was maybe 7 or 8 and meeting a boy from the neighborhood. We were having a great time playing together when I was urgently summoned back indoors. I couldn't understand what all the concern was about at the time, but my aunt just did not think it was a good idea for me to be playing with that other boy even though she would have had no idea who he was. Making strongly negative, and permanent judgments about others based solely on the color of their skin was something that I may not have understood, but I didn't doubt that it was very real. I saw or heard it almost every single day.

I'm sure that Magayle didn't intend to upset anyone with her post. The points in those post definitely would apply for many in my hometown. But fortunately, we are continuing to move in the right direction on this issue and that's a beautiful thing.

[Tatesgram]

Well it's certainly true that women and minorities have really needed government assistance, at least in the form of laws guaranteeing equal rights, over the years.

These issues will eventually be relegated only to history books, I believe, but they endured as an unfortunate reality in our country for hundreds of years. So, it's going to take some decades for them to pass fully into history - thank goodness.

Jackie, you make this sound like the government just magnanimously stepped in and saved these poor souls. How many years did women fight for this right? How many were imprisioned and tortured because they dared demand the right to vote or even be acknowledged to have rights as a person. It was because they brought attention to their cause and forced the government to acknowledge them. The same with minorities. It's just a shame that these hard won victories have been diminished to the point they are today. These were not gifts from the government, yet they have been turned into tools the government uses to keep people, especially minorities, in there place and dependant on their largess.

[JackieB]

Jackie, you make this sound like the government just magnanimously stepped in and saved these poor souls. How many years did women fight for this right? How many were imprisioned and tortured because they dared demand the right to vote or even be acknowledged to have rights as a person. It was because they brought attention to their cause and forced the government to acknowledge them. The same with minorities. It's just a shame that these hard won victories have been diminished to the point they are today. These were not gifts from the government, yet they have been turned into tools the government uses to keep people, especially minorities, in there place and dependant on their largess.


Good point. I apologize. The very last thing I would want to do is diminish, even unintentionally, the tremendous sacrifice and effort that these heroic people did to bring about this change. They exercised their First Amendment Rights and continued to do so, even if it cost their lives, until the nation realized that they weren't going away and weren't going to back down until their grievances were addressed.

I see how my post would appear as if these hard-fought rights were somehow given to women and minorities as a gift and that's not what I meant. I'm sorry.

I do think that the government has to step in to formalize such changes for them to be effective in a country the respects the Rule of Law, but that's not a gift, it's just responding to the will of the people.

[Tatesgram]

Good point. I apologize. The very last thing I would want to do is diminish, even unintentionally, the tremendous sacrifice and effort that these heroic people did to bring about this change. They exercised their First Amendment Rights and continued to do so, even if it cost their lives, until the nation realized that they weren't going away and weren't going to back down until their grievances were addressed.

I see how my post would appear as if these hard-fought rights were somehow given to women and minorities as a gift and that's not what I meant. I'm sorry.

I do think that the government has to step in to formalize such changes for them to be effective in a country the respects the Rule of Law, but that's not a gift, it's just responding to the will of the people.

Point taken, I think we agree, to some degree :)

[Hobo]

First of all there are quite a few mist truths in there.
Namely the one about McCain having been responsible for 7 plane crashes.
Maybe we should take a better look at his flying record. since it was only 5 total planes in the first place.

Plane 1. crashed in training could be pilot error.
Plane 2. Pilot error.
Plane 3. Ruled "UNAVOIDABLE" by the navy investigatiors after McCain radioed that he'd had a "flameout" or some kind of mechanical trouble.
Plane 4. A Rocket slammed into his plane while the plane was ON THE deck not in the air. McCain was assisting a fellow pilot out of a plane after the incident and was injured when the flames caused a nearby bomb to blow up.
Plane 5. The one he was in when he was SHOT DOWN in Vietnam and taken Prisoner.


As for his record at the Naval Academy, Why not look at the "behind the scenes" record. His assisting of fellow classmates who were being bullied. So he didnt' study as hard as he could have, So he got in trouble, Tell me that those of you complaining about his school record NEVER Once did something in school that you now wish you hadn't done? Tell me that those of you who are complaining about his school record went to a military school of any kind? I spent my first two years of college in a military Junior college before I went on to a regular college. If you have never been to a military college then you really have no cause to speak because there is MUCH more to a military college then just studying. Seriously we should be comparing apples to apples not oranges to potatoes. Going to Harvard or any other typical college is NOT the same as going to a military school.


Finally who in the world even cares what the parents of the spouses did for a living as long as it was LEGAL employment. Who cares if it was McCain's wife's father or obama's wife's father who had a beer distributorship? That should never have even been brought up it's totally a non-issue.

Seriously I'm much more inclined to believe that who ever wrote that is the real racist here. Racist aginst the individuals who cannot support Obama because of his policies. I personally would never vote for Obama because of his policies, but I did seriously consider Allen Keyes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Keyes for a while, but some of his policies are also not in alignment with mine. However, he has much better experiences and record then Obama.

I also feel that Biden is egging on this racial attitude towards those NOT voting for Obama with his recent comments.

ABC News' Matthew Jaffe Reports: As Election Day looms just over two weeks away, Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., said Saturday that with Republicans firing "vicious" and "dangerous" attacks at Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., voters are "having a difficult time" opting for the man who would become the nation's first African American president.

"Undecided people are having a difficult time just culturally making the change, making the move for the first African American president in the history of the United States of America," the Democratic vice-presidential nominee said at a San Francisco fundraiser Saturday evening. "So we need to respond. We need to respond at the moment, immediately, not wait, not hang around, not assume any of this won't stick."


Seriously I don't believe at all that undecided voters are undecided just because of the color of the candidates skin. There are other underlying issues that need to be addressed for all the different parties.

I personally decided to vote third party this year because of the policies I don't like in both the main camps these days. I may end up permanently voting third party. I even left parts of my ballot totally blank this year because of the three candidates who wer running unapposed that I didn't agree with in the first place, but there was no one else to vote for. I won't vote for individuals JUST because they are the only one on the ballot for their position. I wish we could vote yes or NO or in favor or Opposed for candidates who are running unapposed like we do for judges.

[Sundays Man]

No matter your political persuasion, it is interesting to think about race as a factor that we don't even notice until it is put this way. Check it out and read on...

I hope you read enough to get to the educational section at the end. This is the remarkable part beyond the interesting-to-think-about-part.

Folks, Something to think about...What if things were turned around? Think about it. Would the country's collective point of view be different? Could racism be the culprit?

· What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, following the debate, including a three month-old infant and an unwed, pregnant teenage
daughter?



· What if John McCain was a former president of the Harvard Law Review?



· What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his college graduating class?



· What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was a divorcee?



· What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair while he was still married?



· What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to pain killers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization?



· What if Cindy McCain graduated from Harvard?



· What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five? (The Keating Five were five United States Senators accused of corruption in 1989, igniting a major political scandal as part of the larger Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s and early 1990s.)

· What if Obama couldn't read from a teleprompter?



· What if Obama was the one who had military experience that included discipline problems and a record of crashing seven planes?



· What if Obama was the one who was known to publicly display a serious anger management problem?



· What if Michelle Obama's family had made their money from beer distribution?



You could easily add to this list. If these questions reflected a reality, if the tables were turned, do you really believe the election numbers would be as close as they are?

This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative characteristics in another when there is a color difference.

And consider the candidates' educational backgrounds:

Barack Obama:
Columbia University - B.A. Political Science with a Specialization in International Relations.
Harvard - Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude

Joseph Biden:
University of Delaware - B.A. in History and B.A. in Political Science.
Syracuse University College of Law - Juris Doctor (J.D.)

John McCain:
United States Naval Academy - Class rank: 894 of 899

Sarah Palin: Hawaii Pacific University - 1 semester
North Idaho College - 2 semesters - general study
University of Idaho - 2 semesters - journalism
Matanuska-Susitna College - 1 semester
University of Idaho - 3 semesters - B.A. in Journalism (Sports Broadcasting)

Education isn't everything, but this is about the two highest offices in the land as well as our standing throughout the world.

John McCain served his country valiantly and corageously. He was spirited and got in some scrapes here and there. Maybe we should look closer at the 7 planes "what if". It makes it sound like he was out crashing planes as a hobby. Give me a break. McCain showed more guts and commitment that few people ever have. To me he is a true hero.

As far as education. I would take one person from the Academy in LAST place in their class over a 20 year Harvard grad.. Have you seen some of their products? I like the education McCain has had and most of it didn't come from any college. They learn a lot at Harvard and Columbia, unfortunately they learn a "lot that ain't true".

From the description of what racism does, it must mean the whole world is racist.

And what if frogs had wings?

[mtnmollie]

John McCain served his country valiantly and corageously. He was spirited and got in some scrapes here and there. Maybe we should look closer at the 7 planes "what if". It makes it sound like he was out crashing planes as a hobby. Give me a break. McCain showed more guts and commitment that few people ever have. To me he is a true hero.

As far as education. I would take one person from the Academy in LAST place in their class over a 20 year Harvard grad.. Have you seen some of their products? I like the education McCain has had and most of it didn't come from any college. They learn a lot at Harvard and Columbia, unfortunately they learn a "lot that ain't true".



Good post- S/M.